A change in tone

[Trevitrace]

Apologize in advance for curtailing the discussion.


I wholeheartedly blame Chuck.

:D

[SpyderNut]

OP, Did this thread accomplish what you had sought after?


Edited to add.

My only thought about a possible solution is to limit the number of posts people get to make each day. Or have Spyderco impose a limit to those they choose. Maybe it would be harder to stoke the fire when you have a limited number of chances.

That could work, but perhaps it might be easier for the mods to simply give the habitual offender(s) a brief "time out" when things get out of hand. (This could be initiated by the mods if the person fails to initiate for themselves). For instance, Kristi (Taz) recently had to ask someone to take a break from posting due to the content of their posts. Judging from the subsequent lack of posts from this person, it appears they were agreeable to take a break from posting/responding for a while. If the time-out strategy fails to curtail the issue, banning the person from the forum could still be used as a last resort.

It's interesting because this whole thing reminds me of golf etiquette on a decent golf course: if you drive your golf cart off of the approved paths (and attempt to baja across the greens :rolleyes: ), the cart will simply turn itself off until it is back in an approved area. Now it would seem that most folks playing on a high-end golf course would know better than to drive their carts in restricted areas, but apparently not. Bearing this in mind, perhaps the mods could "turn the cart off" on a person for a while if they get hostile/out of hand. I dunno. It might be a lot of extra work for the mods, but hopefully this feature wouldn't have to be used very often.
Food for thought.

[MichaelScott]

I joined this forum last Monday. Now it's Friday and I've been reading what I would call "furballs". We used to call them "flame wars" in the early days, but the dust-ups here are not as vitriolic. As most of you probably know this kind of behavior is not unusual in forums or clubs for that matter.

I've dug into a bit of the history of a few of these disputes that have unreeled here and those that have carried over on a few other forums. The topics I've followed up with demonstrate a few things to me, that some posters do indeed have an anti-Spyderco bias, one person going so far as to state that a "maker/manufacturer" (who, from the context of that discussion is clearly Spyderco) will leverage the customers' "ignorance" to increase their profit margins, and will encourage their shills (supporters) to applaud this leveraging. There was also innuendo that Spyderco did not honestly market (represent) the attributes of some knives that the poster(s) considered somehow most important and ethical. Of course, these same people claim to be Spyderco supporters in other discussions.

There is also a great deal of ego involved in terms of some posters' knowledge base, which can be extensive, but their inability to clearly and rationally present their arguments (in the good sense) around a discussion topic creates confusion among others. Complaints or criticism about this is sometimes met by the original poster adopting a superior attitude, which, of course leads to inappropriate remarks from all sides, degenerating into another furball.

My past experience as a moderator and as a forum participant is that you can't have a forum without furballs and feelings getting hurt from time to time. Unfortunately, like a virus, they can quickly consume the original topic.

One remedy, which we used to wield from time to time, was to stop the bleeding by banning the appropriate people. It's a tough move and must be carefully considered (we had moderator meetings unless the person really broke the stated rules) but it works.

It is certainly not easy, but my suggestion is to participate in self-moderating, to not play along. Don't rise to the bait. Let it pass. It's like the idiot who is driving stupid on the highway. There isn't much you can do to stop it, but you can be assured that such idiot behavior is plenty evident to everyone else.

[chuck_roxas45]

Apologize in advance for curtailing the discussion.


I wholeheartedly blame Chuck.

:D

[Cliff Stamp]

I pretty much left because I got bored of the same ole posts over and over & mainly because I am not a fan of the new designs Spyderco has been coming out with...

Your perspective, the customer who actually has a Spyderco-bias (i.e. would look for Spyderco products preferentially) but has some issue, no matter what, with new products is critical for the success of the company. This is one of the main points of contention I had with Blerv's argument where he noted if you didn't like a choice from Spyderco then just don't buy it vs "complaining" about it on the forums. The company needs to know that you are still interested but not in the specific things they are doing.

Imagine if Spyderco knew exactly what every potential customer wanted and with each design they knew exactly what each consumer would think. That kind of information is extremely valuable to any business and many of them pay large amounts to try to obtain it.

Praise is great, but they do need to hear from the people who have any issues with the current line. I guarantee that no one working at Spyderco doesn't want to hear it and if you told Sal you had a piece of paper with the exact polling numbers on how customers thought each decision was positive/negative he would reach for that eagerly.

[Johnnie1801]

[FCM415]

Everyone else is getting along here. Those with so called biases, those without biases, those who do what Spyderco wants, those who do what Spyderco DOESN'T want...

This guy thinks he is being shunned out because of his honesty, like some crusader for the truth that we are trying to surpress. If anything HE is the one who believes in a concpiracy.

Instead of blaming it on something else like biases and agendas, take a look at yourself first and ask yourself why so many have been put off by you. Don't bring in Spyderco biases in this... It is self defeating as we are all here participiating on their site. Your latest post rationalizes everything that you do and point the finger back at everyone else BUT YOU.

[MichaelScott]

I pretty much left because I got bored of the same ole posts over and over & mainly because I am not a fan of the new designs Spyderco has been coming out with...

Your perspective, the customer who actually has a Spyderco-bias (i.e. would look for Spyderco products preferentially) but has some issue, no matter what, with new products is critical for the success of the company. This is one of the main points of contention I had with Blerv's argument where he noted if you didn't like a choice from Spyderco then just don't buy it vs "complaining" about it on the forums. The company needs to know that you are still interested but not in the specific things they are doing.

Imagine if Spyderco knew exactly what every potential customer wanted and with each design they knew exactly what each consumer would think. That kind of information is extremely valuable to any business and many of them pay large amounts to try to obtain it.

Praise is great, but they do need to hear from the people who have any issues with the current line. I guarantee that no one working at Spyderco doesn't want to hear it and if you told Sal you had a piece of paper with the exact polling numbers on how customers thought each decision was positive/negative he would reach for that eagerly.

People can discuss what they like, but that does not necessarily translate into sales.

The success or failure of a design will be demonstrated emphatically by whether it sells or not. Too often, a discussion by a tiny percentage of individuals has no relation to what the marketplace does or will do.

[sal]

This is really getting old. FCM. You seem to be obssessed with Cliff and most of what you have to say is negative Cliff. Why don't you avoid posting for a while and lets see if the thread tone improves.

Michael, very astute obsrvations for a newby. The sad part is that we've been running this forum for more than a decade without the fur-balls. This began fairly recently when a few (only a few) Began to attack Cliff regularly. Those few think that the waters will be clear if we ban Cliff. I get emails from the same few regularly about Cliff. I'm about ready to take some drastic measures, but we have been effectively self moderating for a long time and it is a shame that a few a$$holes can't help themselves and obviosuly "get off" on personal attacks..

sal

[Cliff Stamp]

To clarify, bias isn't a pejorative, it means simply a preconception. I have a bias towards Spyderco for example. This is because Spyderco was one of the first knife makers to not only use, but actually create, materials data on steels and use this to make decisions. They tend to license designs and even give credit to designs which could be argued to be public domain. I also appreciate specific attitudes that Sal has, how he seeks out criticism of the product, how he doesn't act to suppress it and that he tends to have interaction even when very critical individuals who are even hostile to the product.

This bias for Spyderco would make me pick a Spyderco knife over for example a Benchmade knife if both of them were otherwise equal as a knife. I also have a bias against for example KAI, due to the way they have acted to suppress discussion and various customer service interactions with individuals with people who were critical. I don't buy any of their products regardless of how they would perform. I have no bias for Cold Steel so it doesn't make any difference to me if a product is or isn't a Cold Steel knife.

I don't believe my bias for Spyderco extends to the point I distort observations, but I recognize that it could (and if it didn't I would not likely be aware of it). This is why I tend to do passarounds on Spyderco knives and look at how others react to it as I am curious if they would find faults/issues that I don't because I am looking through rose colored glasses.

My point in the above is that when you have a customer who has a Spyderco-bias, which as I noted means they would seek a Spyderco product specifically, not just a knife but a Spyderco knife, then any issues/complaints/criticisms they had are very important as they are obviously your direct customer base. Hence why any argument which supports suppression of such is harmful to the company.

In regards to singling out, to be specific, what I have noted, and which members have openly and honestly admitted, is that they have a very different standard of acceptance of justification for praise vs criticism. Again, some people have actual admitted this, others pretend they don't but it is clear they do from just looking at their posts. If a critical post is made then demands of proof/justification are levied on it which are not made to the same extent as when a post is made which is praising in nature.

For the same general reasons, this special pleading, which is an example of a conclusion bias, is also harmful to Spyderco because it forces discussions critical of Spyderco products to happen elsewhere where the company is unaware of it and thus is unable to respond. Again, it is obvious on a basic level this is destructive to a company because you are preventing them from information which they can use to grow/adapt and removing their right to respond to it.

As an aside, I joined here in 2005. I am senior to almost everyone complaining about the "good old days" . Now that kind of argument is nonsensical in nature anyway but it is again ironic that people making it are far newer members just like it is ironic to keep making arguments about a less than light mood all the while making personal commentary on members vs actually making the kind of posts about Spyderco products that you want to see.

Be a solution instead of complaining about a problem.

[Cliff Stamp]

Too often, a discussion by a tiny percentage of individuals has no relation to what the marketplace does or will do.

Michael,

Here is a frank question, lets say you work for Sal and lets say you have the gift of precognition and you can tell by looking at a knife the kind of threads that will be made on it and the posts they contain.

if you had this gift :

a) would you share the information with Sal

b) do you think Sal would want to see it

I can't read Sal's mind, but I would be fairly surprised if you could give him that information he would not want to see it. And if you put them into two piles, one positive and one negative I am also fairly certain which one he would reach for first. That is the point I am making. You would not be helping him by not giving him that information. He would want to see it.

Are all makers like this? No. But some are, some people really want this interaction. Elliot Williamson for example has one of the strongest responses I have seen outside of Sal. Clay Allison as well really looks at criticism of his product, even hostile criticism with an appreciative view. Clay will also admit openly that his product has improved to no small part by some of his harshest critics.

Praise is great, especially when you have a bad day, seeing a message about something you said/did that helped someone is wonderful. But you can't learn anything from it aside from the fact you were right. I won't lie, of course when I get a post which says "Hey, your video/post was great ..." it is nice. However when someone says "Hey, your video doesn't make any sense, I don't think you are right because you are not considering ...." then I get really interested in what that person has to say.

Of course if they just insult, well anyone can insult anyone, it really isn't that interesting to read.

[FCM415]

This is really getting old. FCM. You seem to be obssessed with Cliff and most of what you have to say is negative Cliff. Why don't you avoid posting for a while and lets see if the thread tone improves.

Michael, very astute obsrvations for a newby. The sad part is that we've been running this forum for more than a decade without the fur-balls. This began fairly recently when a few (only a few) Began to attack Cliff regularly. Those few think that the waters will be clear if we ban Cliff. I get emails from the same few regularly about Cliff. I'm about ready to take some drastic measures, but we have been effectively self moderating for a long time and it is a shame that a few a$$holes can't help themselves and obviosuly "get off" on personal attacks..

sal

What does Cliff get, a pat on the back?

Seems the one who can do something has made a decision. Enjoy Cliff's forum everyone. I'm out.

[nirvanero]

This is really getting old. FCM. You seem to be obssessed with Cliff and most of what you have to say is negative Cliff. Why don't you avoid posting for a while and lets see if the thread tone improves.

Michael, very astute obsrvations for a newby. The sad part is that we've been running this forum for more than a decade without the fur-balls. This began fairly recently when a few (only a few) Began to attack Cliff regularly. Those few think that the waters will be clear if we ban Cliff. I get emails from the same few regularly about Cliff. I'm about ready to take some drastic measures, but we have been effectively self moderating for a long time and it is a shame that a few a$$holes can't help themselves and obviosuly "get off" on personal attacks..

sal

[shabowie]

I'm glad to see a stand taken against people making ad hominem arguments. People should be able to disagree without being so disagreeable and people should be able to present contrarian views without being ostracized and name called by their opponents. I only recently joined to ask a question about the forum knife, but I've been lurking here for years and using Spyderco products for much longer.

I hope if people don't like the contributions of certain fellow forumites they can either ignore those contributions or at the very least refrain from ad hominem attacks. Otherwise the forum turns into an echo chamber which is of dubious value to people like me who mostly come and read stuff for educational purposes. If there is no debate, or contrarian views have been silenced it would become really hard to seperate the truth from misinformation.

[Cliff Stamp]

If there is no debate, or contrarian views have been silenced it would become really hard to seperate the truth from misinformation.

Interestingly enough, if there is one thing which is fundamental to learning that is it, ideas have to be discussed, debated, evaluated, scrutinized - this is exactly how convergence is achieved for the exact reason you noted. It is the criteria that I would argue resolves the demarcation problem.

This is one of the main differences I have with the general implication made in much of the above. I don't agree with many of the arguments Blerv makes about discussion for example. However I would be first in line to assert he should make them because he believes they are true and they make rational sense to him. I don't agree with them, but this doesn't mean he should not make them. In fact the reason that there is disagreement mandates that he should make them for the very reason you noted.

I have always maintained that the field which is most beneficial to Spyderco is one which is open, honest and fair and unbiased evaluation. Any product will look good when discussion is selective to praise, that is obvious - but products which actually are in general superior to the field will look good when this isn't strictly true. Any attempt to suppress an open discussion actually promotes inferior products because that is what they need to succeed.

[remnar]

This is one of the most ironic threads that I have ever read. I’m sure that Blerv never imagined the train wreck that this would become. As a “backbencher “, I usually try to avoid threads like this one, but this time I will chime in.

Exactly one week ago I met Sal Glesser for the first time. I shook his hand and told him that I was a big fan. I guess that makes me a fan-boy, but it doesn’t really matter. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Mr. Glesser because of the manner in which he runs his company, which includes this forum. When we come to his house we should all strive to conduct ourselves in a similar manner. He has tried to give us some guidance with the “questionable taglines & shiny footprints” sticky, but I guess that it’s lost on some people or they just don’t care.

It saddens me that such a well-intentioned thread, such as this one, can be turned on its head by only a few members. This appears to also be happening in the “sharpening” thread.

On the up side, there has been some very sage advice by a few chaps posting here. One of my favorites: “Think twice and post once”.

As someone that is usually just a dragonfly on the wall I would like to add this: Just be respectful. It’s really that simple. It’s ok to disagree, but there isn't any reason to denigrate someone in the process.

Oh yeah, sometimes you just need to shut up. Learn to recognize that moment.

I feel that I need to add the disclaimer that none of this is directed at anyone specific. It's just my ramblings about how all members should conduct themselves in general.

-Peace! :spyder:

[Ankerson]

This is my recommendation, read humble opinion only.


I think I recommended active moderation before, and more than once if I remember correctly.

I did read that the forum was basically self moderated for a number of years and have been told the same a number of times, I have been here for almost 5 years now myself.

But I believe it's beyond that point now for a number of reasons that have been pointed out in this thread, some will disagree with me I am sure.

I also have been an Admin and Moderator on a number of forums over the years so I am speaking from experience here also, I have a lot of years doing it under my belt too.

There comes a time in every forum when additional things are needed going from prior experience.

I am not going to drop names here or single anyone out because I am speaking in general terms here and it really wouldn't be fair to do so.

So I do believe for it to move forward and grow beyond what it is now, adding new sections along with Moderators need to be assigned to actively monitor the forum on a 24/7 schedule.

Now how that would be done or even if it was done would be up to Sal as it is his forum so I am not barking at anyone or telling him what to do as that would be stupid and ignorant at the very least.

Banning a bunch of people really isn't the answer because it will just continue on and on forever and never end, everyone here is valuable IMO, that means everyone.

So taking that into consideration setting up guidelines would be part of the process, printed forum guidelines that everyone would need to follow.

The forum has grown so I believe that it's time while it's still manageable to take it to the next step.

[Blerv]

Cliff,

My response in that one thread was not one of censorship. It was offering three simple (but not comprehensive) solutions to a problem with a knife company not meeting one's needs.

Frankly I'm tired of being paraphrased and interpreted as the punching bag for your cause. I'm saddened that I've been grouped into such a simple little niche but serves me right fot making an effort at communication.

If my stupid quote taken as gospel rather than a frustrated person tired of the day in and day out negativity is the only thing you have to cling to I'm very sorry.

I don't know how many times I have to say I'm not against science, critique or what-not. I'm a pragmatist who runs a 3-person business 50+ hours a week. I'm not going to nag a knife maker until they bend to my will. There are more effective ways to accomplish the goal, hence why I supplied three possible active solutions to the typicial passive-aggressive other options.

This week I bought a Ferrum Forge Fortis in 20CV. It had the qualities I wanted and didn't find with Spyderco at this moment in time. I guess it would have been better to try and make Spyderco build me one or questions their decision making but they were busy with their own projects and I was fresh out of soap boxes and megaphones.

As of today about 1/3 of my folding knives have thumb studs, about half the cost of my meager collection. I don't pressure those companies to listen to me either. Maybe I'm lazy, maybe I just don't care. This is the world if the Internet. I don't need to encourage the town trading post owner to get me something specific...I'll just buy it elsewhere with a credit card.

[Cliff Stamp]

[...] I don't need to encourage the town trading post owner to get me something specific...I'll just buy it elsewhere with a credit card.

Yes, and as I have noted, for reasons I have noted, I believe that advocating that other people behave that way to Spyderco is destructive to Spyderco. I don't believe it is in best interest of Spyderco for their customers who find choices that Spyderco makes as being negative to not say it. And yes, your argument is one of censorship by definition. The word means to support or directly act so as to suppress information because of the nature being seen as negative.

[MichaelScott]

Too often, a discussion by a tiny percentage of individuals has no relation to what the marketplace does or will do.

Michael,

Here is a frank question, lets say you work for Sal and lets say you have the gift of precognition and you can tell by looking at a knife the kind of threads that will be made on it and the posts they contain.

if you had this gift :

a) would you share the information with Sal

b) do you think Sal would want to see it

I can't read Sal's mind, but I would be fairly surprised if you could give him that information he would not want to see it. And if you put them into two piles, one positive and one negative I am also fairly certain which one he would reach for first. That is the point I am making. You would not be helping him by not giving him that information. He would want to see it.

Are all makers like this? No. But some are, some people really want this interaction. Elliot Williamson for example has one of the strongest responses I have seen outside of Sal. Clay Allison as well really looks at criticism of his product, even hostile criticism with an appreciative view. Clay will also admit openly that his product has improved to no small part by some of his harshest critics.

Praise is great, especially when you have a bad day, seeing a message about something you said/did that helped someone is wonderful. But you can't learn anything from it aside from the fact you were right. I won't lie, of course when I get a post which says "Hey, your video/post was great ..." it is nice. However when someone says "Hey, your video doesn't make any sense, I don't think you are right because you are not considering ...." then I get really interested in what that person has to say.

Of course if they just insult, well anyone can insult anyone, it really isn't that interesting to read.

Cliff,
Interesting question. I will attempt a first pass answer though I reserve the right to think about this some more. It's kinda late and the voices in my head are telling me to get some sleep.

I think the essence of your proposition is that one should be open to information and freely share it. Some of that information will be negative and some positive or supportive. It is an axiom that one learns more readily and with greater effect from mistakes – making them and figuring out how to correct them. Your notion of precognition as a perspective is interesting from a theoretical discussion of the situation, but not very realistic. It presupposes total access to valid and comprehensive data. (Would that I was able to achieve such insights.) However, from a practical standpoint, acquiring reliable and fairly accurate data about customers' reactions to a particular knife, steel or design (to keep the analogy on track) is much more difficult. My intuition tells me that the opinions expressed here are not representative of the market for Spyderco knives overall. We are perhaps more knowledgeable but do not accurately represent the global market for Spyderco. Something that Sal would necessarily crank into the equation when evaluating what is discussed here.

I agree that Sal, or anyone, would definitely benefit from access to accurate information whether it be positive, negative or neutral if that information was used to improve or advance the function or purpose of a product. I think that positive information, if it is accurate and not laden with subjective agendas, can be as valuable as negative. To observe that a particular blade shape, for example, is very good for certain uses, and to describe why that is, can be extremely useful.

As with a negative criticism, positives should also be based on solid evidence as well and be able to withstand reasonable and rational criticism. That is another way in which we learn.

As we know, some things are not always solidly right or wrong. They may be found to be so at some future time, but as research demonstrates, we don't know everything but must be open to possibilities that are rational and supportable by evidence. Believing that two plus two equals five doesn't make it so and once discussion veers into beliefs versus what we can know from evidence rationally presented, we are then in the land of personal subjectivity and beliefs. This is where many interesting and valuable discussions get off the rails.

I am learning much about knives, steels, ergonomics, and the world of aficionados here. There are a great many experienced and knowledgeable members here and I think all have much to contribute to the discussions and to the fun of appreciating edged excellence.

I've wandered a bit at the end. I hope this was a satisfactory answer to your question.

Regards.