Broken FRN

[3rdGenRigger]

Having read all of this thus far, I think there's a little too much mud-slinging going on. Being critical of everything is essentially the basis of Science as we know it. People at one time were convinced that Newtonian Physics was the be-all end-all and there was nothing left to be gained from further examination and that Physics was essentially figured out, but scepticism and critical thinking continues to drive our knowledge of the universe. In no way does Cliff's original post imply that all FRN handled knives are weak (To my reading anyways)...the evidence against such a claim is substantial. I myself have watched my FRN Native fall ~275 feet onto gravel and at the time I thought for sure the knife would be toast...but after climbing down to ground level and finding the knife half open lying on the gravel, I discovered that I could BARELY see the mark left on the handle from the gravel, and it obviously didn't bounce onto the blade after opening because the edge was fine. The knife is still in perfect operating condition (This was about 7-8 years ago)...FRN is tough stuff, but like everything it isn't free from manufacturing defects. I'd suspect a manufacturing defect in this instance given how tough FRN is, but abuse can't be ruled out. Only Spyderco can make the final call regarding this, but in my experience FRN is very durable and I'd expect the blade to fail before the FRN handle of my FRN knives.

As to those questioning the purpose and validity of this thread, all I have to say (From my personal perspective) is this:

FRN isn't completely indestructible. We've seen more blade failures in similar knives than handle failures, and as such there could very well be a QC problem with the specific knife in question. It could be abuse, but FRN is very tough and it would likely take very significant abuse to cause such a failure. And even if it is abuse related, Spyderco could very well use this info to reinforce that portion of the handle so that it isn't the "Weakest Link" of that particular handle design and make their design more resilient to abuse...to me the question raised becomes this: Why bring this up on a public forum?

My own answer to this would be that it serves as a good reminder that nothing is ever perfect, and always should be questioned whether good or bad. The knife could be faulty, or the owner could be abusive. Either way the benefit is on the part of Spyderco. If the knife is faulty Spyderco will rectify the issue with the owner and it reinforces the fact that FRN may be tough but not completely indestructible to potential users, while allowing Spyderco to use the data to potentially make their knives even more durable (Arguably only a good thing). If it was abused, after Spyderco evaluates it, they should be able to reinforce the design so that it is even more resilient to abuse (Also arguably not a bad thing, though intentional abuse would prevent them from being obligated to replace it).

To me it seems that both viewpoints are beneficial to both Spyderco and ELU's of Spyderco knives. If it was abused they won't be obligated to replace it but will gain some info on how to make the design stronger anyways, and if it was a QC failure they can help the ELU while taking steps to improve their production process.

[Ankerson]

I don't think people should get too whacked out of shape over it until Spyderco gets to see it.

That's just my take on it for what that is worth.

Just seems odd to me as I know FRN is hard to break with as much as it flexes, I know because I have done it and more than a few times, same with G10.

Only had one handle break before the blade personally and that took me standing on the knife between 2 landscape timbers and bouncing on it until it cracked and I weigh like 195 LBS.

Most folders I can put in my vise and snap the blades without much of an issue, something I have found over the years.

Griptilian? :D

Yeah, that was the last knife I broke on purpose, I don't do that type of testing anymore and haven't for a long time time now. I learned what I needed to learn from breaking knives, pushing them beyond their limits so now I have a good idea of what they should be able to do and not do.

Now if there is a problem it's by accident and I report it to the maker privately so it can be addressed without drama.

[paladin]

But to answer your question...YES!

So to clarify, I can expect the same skepticism from you on positive reviews and commentaries?

Do you really think your history on the forum reflects the same?

Do you think the history of the other people in the above with similar demands/speculations also reflects their skepticism is unbiased?

Count 1...NO! You can only expect my unexpect-ablenss on every subject. Sometimes I agree with you, but for some reason you show a bias in this thread for making me out to be some kind of pseudo-foe to you...

Count 2...I have a history? and YOU follow it?... at least well enough to use it against me?...color me flattered! :o

Count 3...Not sure, but I enjoy skepticism. And I find it endlessly fascinating of how often your research is agreed to be sound, by many here :D

These are just my observations-- am I entitled to them, in your opinion? What if I promise to research them in the future-- valid now?

I've answered your queries at least twice, but you still haven't answered mine: Why didn't you investigate the broken FRN more indepth before posting? If you refuse to answer your "Junior Mad Scientist" decoder ring may be confiscated!

[paladin]

To me it seems that both viewpoints are beneficial to both Spyderco and ELU's of Spyderco knives. If it was abused they won't be obligated to replace it but will gain some info on how to make the design stronger anyways, and if it was a QC failure they can help the ELU while taking steps to improve their production process.

Well said...

And this is a Forum for people who love everything Spyderco, right?

I know your answer Rigger...just checking! :)

[Cliff Stamp]

Count 1...NO!

Appreciate the answer, do you actually think that demand for justification only on criticism but not on praise actually benefits Spyderco?

but you still haven't answered mine

I didn't assume it was serious. I do get asked on occasion to look at knives which have problems. The only time I typically accept is if the maker/manufacturer has refused and has no desire to engage the customer. I have explained why I would argue they should always get first response elsewhere. There is also a high chance the knife can be seized in customs and significant cost even if it isn't.

[3rdGenRigger]

I love Spyderco for the most part. Are there some things I'd change? Yes, but the things I'd change wouldn't necessarily be good from a business model perspective and I don't have anything invested in the company. They've done a great job as far as I'm concerned...in fact I can't think of another company that takes as good care of its ELU's, makes as innovative products, and pushes the boundaries of production folding and fixed blade knives to the degree that Spyderco knives do.

It's easy to be defensive of Spyderco...I naturally feel that way myself as their products have always performed above expectations for me and I've always been very satisfied, but like everything they're not going to be 100% perfect in every way, nor will their manufacturing be the same on every particular example of a specific knife. I have knives that if I wanted to I could complain about slightly uneven edge grinds and similar issues, but my knives are users and the bevels will straighten out with a few sharpenings and as such doesn't bother me much. Beyond that I haven't personally had any issues.

I could buy knives from any company...there's a reason I buy Spyderco knives. I've never had a problem with one of my Spydercos , but I don't by any Stretch (Yes this is intended as a pun lol) propose that there isn't the possibility of a problem from the manufacturers end. Either way though, the knowledge of said incidents benefits both ELU's and the manufacturer.

[paladin]

Count 1...NO!

Appreciate the answer, do you actually think that demand for justification only on criticism but not on praise actually benefits Spyderco?

but you still haven't answered mine

I didn't assume it was serious. I do get asked on occasion to look at knives which have problems. The only time I typically accept is if the maker/manufacturer has refused and has no desire to engage the customer. I have explained why I would argue they should always get first response elsewhere. There is also a high chance the knife can be seized in customs and significant cost even if it isn't.

So, are you interested in making Spyderco a better company?

And of course I do not want ONLY inordinate praise threads posted, but I think there's room here for that...I LOVE threads like this!

Why did you assume that I was being critical of your position by simply asking if it were possible that you were misled or maybe told halftruths about the circumstances surrounding the breakage? Why do I immediately get put on the biased bandwagon for asking that? My posts, if you read them carefully, never imply deceit on anyone's part..only the possibility thereof. Is that not a valid position?

[3rdGenRigger]

This picture isn't from the same job site that my knife fell, but it is taken from about the same height. I don't want to subject one of my collection knives (Despite the fact that they're all users) to an intentional drop from a specified height, though if it wasn't a part of my collection I could be persuaded to oblige, but I don't want to intentionally subject one of my own knives to such a thing over 100 feet. We have a few trucks with a man-basket that can reach ~100 feet and given where it can be set up it could easily be set up to more easily recreate impact events on different mediums. I've been thinking about doing some impact tests from 100ft with my orange FRN Dragonfly and maybe a few other Spydies, but I'll need to look more into it before committing.

[Evil D]

It's one of four possible causes:

1) the user lied. Nobody likes to think this, but this is the internet.

2) the FRN had some kind of mold defect making it weak

3) the wood being carved had a knot and/or the blade was dull as a paper clip and the user Hulk handed the blade through the knot until he physically broke the handle.

4) the knife was abused prior to this incident and weakened it.

I don't see any of them being too unreasonable or some combination of all three. Nothing is unbreakable under the right circumstances.

[The Deacon]

Regardless of anything else, one fact is clear. The handle of a Manix 2 Lightweight is not made of FRN, it is made of FRCP. Both are "plastics" with chopped fiberglass flock added for reinforcement, but the plastics are totally different.

So, a Spyderco FRN handle did not break because the handle that broke was not FRN, which means that the title of this thread is incorrect and potentially misleading to anyone not familiar with the knife involved.

Personally, I'm not overly surprised that FRCP broke. My first impression when I received my Manix 2 lightweight was that FRCP felt hard and inflexible compared to FRN and, in plastics, I tend to equate a lack of flexibility with brittleness.

I'd be extremely surprised if FRN cracked like that, unless the knife was dipped in liquid nitrogen first. I've flexed a Spyderco FRN handle slab till the front and back ends nearly touched and it bouced right back. That slab was one side of the handle of an Atlantic Salt that Steve Rice cut apart when rebuilding it with ti liners and maple scales. I did finally manage to "break" one, but it took flexing it like that more than 20 times and when "broke" it broke like toffee, not with a clean fracture.

Given the location of the break, I think it's pretty safe to say that a side load had to be involved and, while I know Spyderco tests their knives for lock strength, I'm less sure whether they ever run side-load testing.

[Evil D]

Paul hasn't it been established that the S110V LW is indeed FRN?

[The Mastiff]

I'd like to make it clear that I agree with Cliff that we should be free to post failures without anyone challenging our motives. On the other hand if something really doesn't add up it shouldn't be a problem to ask questions about it. I personally like learning what not to do with my knives as well as learn about the whole spectrum of the art and science of knifemaking.

When I first saw it twisting the knife is what crossed my mind. Was it done during a twisting, forward cut or gouge? Just curious.

Thanks

[Surfingringo]

But to answer your question...YES!

So to clarify, I can expect the same skepticism from you on positive reviews and commentaries?

Do you really think your history on the forum reflects the same?

Do you think the history of the other people in the above with similar demands/speculations also reflects their skepticism is unbiased?

Cliff, what you are asking for is ridiculous. Of course negative posts about spyderco knives and materials will always receive more skepticism than positive ones. To assume that is because of some desire to subdue scientific thought and reason is also ridiculous. You are smarter than that. There will always be more skepticism about negative experience because it runs contrary to our own experience. Positive posts are much easier to accept without question because they match our own experience.

Let me give you an example of something that happens to me often. I use 50lb braided line when fishing. Undamaged 50b braid is very difficult to break on a straight pull from a kayak. I have broken off only once or twice (ever) on very large fish and even then I suspect i had nicked my line. Now sometimes I run into bass fishermen (happened two weeks ago in Mexico) that will swear that 50lb braid breaks on them all the time. They swear that it was happening so often they had to switch to using 65 pound braid on the 2-8 lb fish they are catching. Fish that are 1/10th the size and don't have half the fight of what I catch on the same line. It should be noted that the man telling me this is actually a very good bass fisherman. So, should I be critical of what they are saying or should I just accept that it must be true even though it is in direct conflict with my own experience? We both use Spiderwire brand line. He claims that the line just can't handle the force. I suspect that he is mistaken about his belief. I suspect that because he is fishing with no leader the line gets abraded and nicked and becomes much weaker before failure. We had a friendly discussion in which I told him I simply didn't believe him. Of course I believed that he was actually breaking his line, I just didn't agree about the cause. I was naturally skeptical because it runs contrary to my own experience. Guess which one of us is probably right? He left still convinced that he was right and I left there with the same conviction. Am I calling him a liar because I don't instantly believe his story? If he holds up the two ends of the line and shows me that it is indeed broken is that proof of his claim about why it is breaking? Am I a spider wire shill because I don't believe he is breaking undamaged 50lb braid on 5lb fish? Am I accusing him of something nefarious when I tell him I don't believe its happening the way he thinks it is? Am I wrong or anti scientific or trying to subdue knowledge if I question his experience? Is that really what you are asking for around here?? Hard to believe.

edit: I should have picked a better word than "ridiculous" to use in my first paragraph. I hope that didn't lend any combative tone to my post as that was certainly not my intent. I'd also like to add that my analogy about the fishing line has nothing to do with what actually happened to that frn. It very well might have had a factory defect and broken during light wood carving. I was only trying to show why it is completely natural for folks to look for an explanation when presented with something that runs contrary to their overwhelming experience.

[paladin]

Joe's right...

Everyone should feel free to post what they want about Spyderco here without getting flamed...

But I hold that NO ONE should post here expecting to think they are above getting QUESTIONED about their posts & threads...

Cliff himself invoked the "lie" / "conspiracy theory" himself about 5 posts in.

Jim stated an observation that looked like there was some damage out of frame on the handle and it looked like it may have been beaten to him...a valid observation, even by Cliff's rigorous standards for "observing."

Then I raised the QUESTION of the POSSIBILITY that he could have been not told ALL THE FACTs, duped , or otherwise lied to. IT is a fact that very little actual facts are detailed in the initial thread starter.

After he claimed his friend was above suspicion, or at least, very unlikely to be duplicitous, FINE. I even stated Cliff's word was good enough for me. :)

Then all the old fanboy bias tirade got started.

[RadioactiveSpyder]

Paul hasn't it been established that the S110V LW is indeed FRN?

I honestly can't believe this question is back again! Yes, it is FRN not FRCP, the lightweight S110V Manix and Native 5 series is FRN! For goodness sakes, we even had Sal himself confirm this...

Check the catalog:
http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=878" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[araneae]

Regardless of how it happened, in all my time here, that is the second polymer(FRN/FRCP) handle I've seen reported to break. The last one I believe was a Salt 1 David ran over with a Bobcat. That is a pretty good record in my book. There are a lot of Manix lightweights in the wild, if this was a real concern for product safety we would have seen more posts about it by now. You can break anything if you try hard enough.

[Ankerson]

Joe's right...

Everyone should feel free to post what they want about Spyderco here without getting flamed...

But I hold that NO ONE should post here expecting to think they are above getting QUESTIONED about their posts & threads...

Cliff himself invoked the "lie" / "conspiracy theory" himself about 5 posts in.

Jim stated an observation that looked like there was some damage out of frame on the handle and it looked like it may have been beaten to him...a valid observation, even by Cliff's rigorous standards for "observing."

Then I raised the QUESTION of the POSSIBILITY that he could have been not told ALL THE FACTs, duped , or otherwise lied to. IT is a fact that very little actual facts are detailed in the initial thread starter.

After he claimed his friend was above suspicion, or at least, very unlikely to be duplicitous, FINE. I even stated Cliff's word was good enough for me. :)

Then all the old fanboy bias tirade got started.

All I can say is that I am totally and completely confused in the end. :confused:

This model wore a hole in my leather glove when I ran it, in the thumb.

[Blerv]

Maybe it would be best to let Spyderco answer the person (who owns the knife). In the many years I've never witnessed someone needing an intermediary to deal with the company's W&R department, because they almost always side with the client.

We could debate theoretical flaws or theoretical abuse all day but unless you are an employee of the company making the judgement call it's just an opinion.

As for definitions:

Lie
noun
1.
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
Synonyms: prevarication, falsification.
Antonyms: truth.

In this case if a knife was abused but the operator was not aware of what this means in the context of Spyderco's warranty they would simply lack the specific knowledge. In turn the user is naive instead of malicious.

[Surfingringo]

Well heres an interesting read. (post 72) :cool:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... read/page4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[akaAK]

Interesting link. Thanks for thickening the plot.

Am I off base or did I miss the overt negativity that is being complained about. I wondered what type of woodworking would cause damage like this when I read the first post. Seemed like a very vague description. My interpretation was that people were trying to establish possibilities not deflect any potential negative criticism of Spyderco's products.