Veff vs Spyderco

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Cliff Stamp
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Veff vs Spyderco

Postby Cliff Stamp » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:26 pm

Has anyone used the Veff serrations compared to the pattern Spyderco usually uses. The argument made by Veff against the typical pattern while I do see as having some merit, is really exaggerated :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfolZ8X9HVY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note the implication that you can't cut paper, cardboard, leather etc. with a typical serration and that they tear/rip ropes. I like Veff's pattern from a creative/innovative perspective, but when comparisons get so slanted it tends to weaken the argument.

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Evil D
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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby Evil D » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:55 pm

As I said on the video, I don't doubt that the pattern used is a high performing pattern...but the funny angle doesn't necessarily add any performance whatsoever. They force you into making pull cuts to direct the edge of the serration into the material, and so they perform well in a pull cut, but if you use a pushing motion then you're moving away from the edge and so you lose that bite. I would expect the same pattern being cut straight up and down to perform better in most cases, since you can always just adjust the angle of your cut to direct the serrations into the material, instead of being forced to pull cut.

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Surfingringo
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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby Surfingringo » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:57 pm

Interesting. I like seeing folks experimenting with serration patterns. I believe that there is still a lot of room for research and experimentation in that area of "edge science".

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remnar
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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby remnar » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:01 pm

The problem that I see with the video is that he didn't do any real controlled testing to compare the two. It's easy to show how well the Veff serrations work and make comments about how the others don't work as well. It's difficult and time consuming to actually prove it.

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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby KevinOubre » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:04 pm

While my opinion may not hold as much weight as someone like Veff who has been in the industry longer than my 24 years around the sun, nothing he did in that video was something I haven't seen/done myself with a properly sharpened Spyderco, Benchmade, and Kershaw serration. And a plain edge can do all of that equally easily. He didn't seem to really prove anything. He just showed a single version fo the triple scallop serration that by his word, didn't work well. And sure, Ill give him the benefit of the doubt for that single knife, but again, he seems to make the claim that all triple scallop serrations are equal, which is, from my perspective and use, simply not true. I have used the Veffs in a limited amount as well. I personally didn't notice anything spectacular about them and they still suffer from the sharpening ills of all serrations if you don't have some sort of rod system. Now I would also like to add that my view is very biased as I personally fine no significant usefulness in serrations for cutting outside of the kitchen so that could taint my opinion somewhat.

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Skywalker
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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby Skywalker » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:12 pm

I had one of the m16 CRKTs with Veff serrations a few years back. Seemed to cut agressively on the pulls, not much on the pushes. My main problem with it is that those tips like to break off if you have to use much force when cutting. No bueno. Got rid of it; don't really buy serrated folders at all anymore.

Agree with KevinOubre that "a plain edge can do all of that equally easily" for the stuff in the video, too.

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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby SpyderNut » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:51 pm

Interesting indeed. I have exactly one CRKT folder featuring VEFF serrations (a Brian Tighe design). I bought it mainly out of curiosity... never had a chance to try it out. :o

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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby bearfacedkiller » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:09 pm

I saw those on the Combo Edge Razel which I contemplated buying a while back. I do not doubt the ability of the serrations but I also think that they are designed mostly for pull cuts. I also am very wary of marketing and it seems like he compared his sharp knife to a dull S&W knife. I would need to see something more convincing or handle it myself to be sure. While I do not overly care for serrations I saw his knife do nothing I can't do with my own sharpened serrated knife.
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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby spyderg » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:55 pm

bearfacedkiller wrote:I saw those on the Combo Edge Razel which I contemplated buying a while back. I do not doubt the ability of the serrations but I also think that they are designed mostly for pull cuts. I also am very wary of marketing and it seems like he compared his sharp knife to a dull S&W knife. I would need to see something more convincing or handle it myself to be sure. While I do not overly care for serrations I saw his knife do nothing I can't do with my own sharpened serrated knife.

I have the Razel with the veffs. They work well but the steel is not up to the task. All of the serrations are rolled and the tips damaged. I will say that even as beat up as they are they still cut well. I am curious as to how they fair on a better steel. As far as pushing and pulling, the only time I personally engage the serrations is pulling, on the Razel or any other knife with them, (I don't have many as I'm not typically a fan of serrations).
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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby JD Spydo » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:06 pm

Surfingringo wrote:Interesting. I like seeing folks experimenting with serration patterns. I believe that there is still a lot of room for research and experimentation in that area of "edge science".
I've been thinking the exact same thing concerning serration patterns myself>> I've often wondered why Spyderco hasn't innovated some new patterns. Actually some of the older patterns they have already used in the past are some of their better ones used up till now. I still maintain that the low profile serration pattern on my old, full Spyderedged C-17 Catcherman model are some of the very best serrations I've used up till now>> I so much wish they would bring back the Catcherman in full SE with that particular pattern.

Everyone I've showed that knife to has loved it's performance. But why should Spyderco even stop there>> they have already taken serrated blades to another level and have already taken the knife market by storm. Who do knife afficionados think of when you mention serrated blades?? Absolutely!! Spyderco and hardly no one else>> so why don't they experiment with some other patterns.

The rounded, wavy pattern they have used in the past on kitchen knives K-04 & K-05 are superb in the kitchen. And my full Spyderedged, AUS-8 Catcherman is a food prepper's dream blade. I want another one so bad but have not been able to locate one as of yet.

Spyderco needs to do some research on more serration patterns>>> And Cliff?? if this is what it takes to get them to the research and development stage of looking into some newer and hopefully better SE patterns then I say the sooner the better. Why not take an already good thing and make it better?

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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby Donut » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:24 pm

Veff is pretty good. I believe they will put normal serrations on a knife for you.

I think those serrations would be good for getting specific parts of the edge dull fast. The video seems to prove the point that sharp is better than dull. I bet the same exact video could be made with a typical plain edge knife.
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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby bearfacedkiller » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:20 pm

I would like to see a less aggressive serrated pattern myself, like the kitchen knives. The serrations on my original first gen Leatherman Wave work well and do not grab and tear as much, and they resemble the serrations on the kitchen knives. The grabbing and tearing is my main issue with serrations. This Zeff pattern seems optimized for grabbing and tearing so if anything it is a step backwards for me.
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sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?

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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby Bill1170 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:58 pm

bearfacedkiller wrote:I would like to see a less aggressive serrated pattern myself, like the kitchen knives. The serrations on my original first gen Leatherman Wave work well and do not grab and tear as much, and they resemble the serrations on the kitchen knives. The grabbing and tearing is my main issue with serrations. This Zeff pattern seems optimized for grabbing and tearing so if anything it is a step backwards for me.
I agree. I like the less aggressive serrations better, too.

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Stuart Ackerman
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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby Stuart Ackerman » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:31 am

The reason why the Veff work well is because they are bigger than any other type of serration...the angle might be only a small factor? I do not know, just wondering out aloud...

If the Spyderco teeth were enlarged a tad, I wonder how they would perform in relation to the Veff type?

And yes, sharp is always better...

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Evil D
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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby Evil D » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:27 am

JD Spydo wrote: I still maintain that the low profile serration pattern on my old, full Spyderedged C-17 Catcherman model are some of the very best serrations I've used up till now>> I so much wish they would bring back the Catcherman in full SE with that particular pattern.

I could be missing something but I don't believe the difference is to do with a pattern, it has to do with how thin the Catcherman blade is. The thicker the blade, especially behind the edge, the deeper the serrations need to be cut in order to reach the other side, which results in deeper curves for each serration and taller points between them. The only other way this can be changed while sticking with the big/small/small/big/etc pattern is to change the angle that they're ground in..if you increase the angle you'll hit the other side sooner and that'll make the serrations shallower and less pointy, but will no doubt hinder performance due to having a thicker edge. Unless that pattern on the Catcherman uses a different width serration pattern, I'd say it has more to do with the thickness of the steel than anything else.

If you wanna see a real world proof of this, look at any FGG SE blade that has a distal taper. The serrations at the tip of the blade are always much shallower and usually less pointy. My Stretch is a perfect example of this.

You can also remove some of the depth of serrations by beveling the back side.

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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby VashHash » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:01 am

So if someone had something like this Image

And a standard spyderhawk SE..... Hmm. But who would have such a knife

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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby MCM » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:25 am

There is no shortage of opinions on the subject. And that's what most of this is.
Personal opinions. So, here is mine.........
Size and spacing of serrations has both positives and negatives.
Depending on the media that's being cut. A Rib Eye? Or a Seatbelt?
What most have found is that large serrations like above dull faster
as there is less protection to the actual cutting edge.
Also I have yet to find a combo edge knife that out performs either an all serrated or P/E.
As there is too little of either to be really effective. I found it odd he choose a combo edge for this example.
And I do get sick of poor marketing. Like in the video posted above.
I guess if you knew the media being cut and the direction of the cut you could design serrations for that purpose.
But who knows in advance what they will be cutting with a pocket knife and in what direction ahead of time?
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More S90v & CF please.......

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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby VashHash » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:27 pm

I'll bring my veff serrated spyderhawk to work tomorrow and run it through some task. I'll let you know what i think....

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Surfingringo
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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby Surfingringo » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:33 pm

VashHash wrote:I'll bring my veff serrated spyderhawk to work tomorrow and run it through some task. I'll let you know what i think....
Do u actually have the standard serrated version too? You should bring em both! :spyder:

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Re: Veff vs Spyderco

Postby VashHash » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:26 pm

Surfingringo wrote:
VashHash wrote:I'll bring my veff serrated spyderhawk to work tomorrow and run it through some task. I'll let you know what i think....
Do u actually have the standard serrated version too? You should bring em both! :spyder:
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