Official Thread Regarding Upcoming Endura/Delica/Stretch

[SpeedHoles]

Almost a page gone by and not much related to actual news of these knives...
I am disappoint.

[FCM415]

Almost a page gone by and not much related to actual news of these knives...
I am disappoint.

Hehe, Sal gave us a good bit to work with (steels and corresponding handle materials).

Attempting to fill in the blanks is common on all these type of threads. Sorry for fluffing it up. :o

[Jason B.]

So with all your posts combined, you suggest that they DO NOT proceed with SG2 and HAP40.

What do you suggest they do? Just stay with the tried and true VG10, and a lowered HT ZDP189 (like you discussed). These Japanese models do not have many options other than what is made in Japan so...any other Japanese steels you suggest instead? White steel is being considered. Is that ok with you or is that too Kitchen-y also?

Would just sticking with different handle colors be your solution?

How about the "non masses" like me and you? Honestly, I'm VERY happy with VG10 and ZDP... But I think the positives of looking forward to other steels outweigh its negatives.

That's not at all what I'm reading from his posts. It sounds like he's saying that while HRC 65 with these steels is fine for kitchen knives, we should expect a lower hardness in a general use pocket knife. So rather than NOT proceeding with these steels, Spyderco SHOULD release them, but we won't see the full potential of these steels. At least that's how I'm interpreting it. :)

But I do agree with you and think that for a sprint run it should cater to those that would take care of it, so I'd certainly vote for full hardness and all the ramifications that come with that. As a sprint, it'll mostly be going to knife aficionados anyway.

Exactly!

All I am saying is that while it's great we are getting these steels don't expect them to follow the hype you find on a kitchen knife forum or the description from a kitchen knife retailer.

[Jason B.]

As per the question about the sharpened angle of the endura.

It's about 18-20 dps, this was one of the first runs and they had some issue with the thickness of the saber grind. Yes, the bevel was very large but the steel was also very thick. It had nothing to do with the chipped edge. IIRC, my dad was cutting rope... On a diamond plate stainless steel truck bumper.

[Blerv]

Whatever HRC Spyderco uses will be tested to make sure it holds up and also performs admirably. Sal and Eric are steel snobs as are their peers hence the history of working with extremely difficult materials.

If they listened to the forum for every decision, on average, it would provide less successful products. As they haven't even commented on the testing results and their target HRC, IMHO, we might be putting the cart before the horse...

Wait
Buy one
Test one
Report back with praise, panic, or both.

As for the comments of early ZDP being harder than current, I don't believe it. At least from Spyderco, the Calypso Jr ZDP-189's were one of the first sprints in that steel (burgundy, 2004?) and they did an exclusive in black scales shortly after. That knife had some of the most acute geometry to date for Spyderco. I haven't experienced chipping personally nor seen outcry from the forums on it. Any severe chipping I would blame user error (sharpening or cutting), application of use, or some type of micro-structure anomaly. A combination of misuse and "bad luck".

[Strong-Dog]

Whatever HRC Spyderco uses will be tested to make sure it holds up and also performs admirably. Sal and Eric are steel snobs as are their peers hence the history of working with extremely difficult materials.

If they listened to the forum for every decision, on average, it would provide less successful products. As they haven't even commented on the testing results and their target HRC, IMHO, we might be putting the horse before the cart...

Wait
Buy one
Test one
Report back with praise, panic, or both.

As for the comments of early ZDP being harder than current, I don't believe it. At least from Spyderco, the Calypso Jr ZDP-189's were one of the first sprints in that steel (burgundy, 2004?) and they did an exclusive in black scales shortly after. That knife had some of the most acute geometry to date for Spyderco. I haven't experienced chipping personally nor seen outcry from the forums on it. Any severe chipping I would blame user error (sharpening or cutting), application of use, or some type of micro-structure anomaly. A combination of misuse and "bad luck".

Didn't the ZDP-189 Mule come out near the beginning of when Spyderco started to use ZDP, and weren't there reports of them breaking due to hardness? Not that this proves anything, but still

[Blerv]

Didn't the ZDP-189 Mule come out near the beginning of when Spyderco started to use ZDP, and weren't there reports of them breaking due to hardness? Not that this proves anything, but still

No that was Mule # 4 and while after the folders were launched.

What it does prove is that Spyderco pushed the HRC to the max and had to recall some blades for being too brittle. It's an example of character/objective if anything else.

[FCM415]

All I am saying is that while it's great we are getting these steels don't expect them to follow the hype you find on a kitchen knife forum or the description from a kitchen knife retailer.

Oh I fully expect it. Otherwise, there is no point. Not the hype, but the actual performance is what I'm looking forward to. Spyderco pays attention to HT as much or more as any other production company out there.

First you said these steels HAP40 and SG2 were not intended for kitchen cutlery altogether (curious, what were they originally intended for?)... Essentially piled CUTLERY into one genre at first.

Then, after I point out that some of the most popular knife steels were not originally intended for cutlery- kitchen or folders you say that the positive feedback of these steels from kitchen cutlery will not apply to folders because they are different altogether also...

Like I asked... What Japanese steels would you suggest Spyderco use? I see what you are saying but at the same time, what if one or both of these steels turn out to be the next VG10 success story? Shouldn't wait before we make claims that it will not perform because of HT problems or not standing up to EDC use until after end users actually test them out first?

[FCM415]

That ZDP Endura pictured is 40 inclusive? I find that hard to believe.

So what was the factory bevel, 60, 70 inclusive?

[The Deacon]

Didn't the ZDP-189 Mule come out near the beginning of when Spyderco started to use ZDP, and weren't there reports of them breaking due to hardness? Not that this proves anything, but still

No, it came out fairly late in the game. The ZDP Mule did not appear until mid 2009 and Spyderco had been offering ZDP-189 almost continually since the Calypso Jr Sprint in 2005.

[Strong-Dog]

Didn't the ZDP-189 Mule come out near the beginning of when Spyderco started to use ZDP, and weren't there reports of them breaking due to hardness? Not that this proves anything, but still

No, it came out fairly late in the game. The ZDP Mule did not appear until mid 2009 and Spyderco had been offering ZDP-189 almost continually since the Calypso Jr Sprint in 2005.

Ah, did not know that

[tvenuto]

Ah, did not know that

Yes, I couldn't list them all but I do know that there have been a few mules that were not the first time spyderco has issued a knife with the steel in question. I quickly looked at spydiewiki and this info is not readily available on the MT page, although I'm sure it could be figured out via the info there.

[CyberKlown28]

Got my discontinued stretch today. Pretty tight out of the box. How long does it take to break in the opening action? :)

[jabba359]

Yes, I couldn't list them all but I do know that there have been a few mules that were not the first time spyderco has issued a knife with the steel in question. I quickly looked at spydiewiki and this info is not readily available on the MT page, although I'm sure it could be figured out via the info there.

When I get some free time in a few weeks I'll see if I can't get that info added to the MT page.

[The Mastiff]

The ZDP mules had trouble because the steel composition was off. The recommended heat treat therefore didn't produce expected results as best as I can recall.

SG2 I have tried in a few knives. It seems to have a bit less abrasive wear than S30V but when done the way the competitor company treated it was fine grained and took to thin edges and fairly high grits. After that they begab using it in their kitchen line. It was nice to sharpen.

HAP 40 I have no experience with but in the high wear high speed steels I like steels heat treated for wear resistance and am more than willing to give up a bit of corrosion resistance and even toughness. On pocket sized folder knives anyway. A fixed blade, especially a competition knife would be different. HAP 40 looks interesting. I'll like it wherever it's hardened on the RC scale and haven't felt let down by Spydercos selections on heat treat yet.

Joe

[sdedalus83]

HAP 40 I have no experience with but in the high wear high speed steels I like steels heat treated for wear resistance and am more than willing to give up a bit of corrosion resistance and even toughness. On pocket sized folder knives anyway. A fixed blade, especially a competition knife would be different. HAP 40 looks interesting. I'll like it wherever it's hardened on the RC scale and haven't felt let down by Spydercos selections on heat treat yet.
Joe

Its chemistry is identical to CPM Rex 45 and Vanadis 30, so basically a high hot hardness variation of CPM M4. From what I understand, you should expect slightly lower toughness and wear resistance but it should be superior to ZDP-189 in both.

[Strong-Dog]

HAP 40 I have no experience with but in the high wear high speed steels I like steels heat treated for wear resistance and am more than willing to give up a bit of corrosion resistance and even toughness. On pocket sized folder knives anyway. A fixed blade, especially a competition knife would be different. HAP 40 looks interesting. I'll like it wherever it's hardened on the RC scale and haven't felt let down by Spydercos selections on heat treat yet.
Joe

Its chemistry is identical to CPM Rex 45 and Vanadis 30, so basically a high hot hardness variation of CPM M4. From what I understand, you should expect slightly lower toughness and wear resistance but it should be superior to ZDP-189 in both.

I would think it would be more wear resistant than M4. What am I missing?

[Blerv]

I would think it would be more wear resistant than M4. What am I missing?

Not sure how it will do in practice. In theory it should take a more keen edge. As for thicker edge edge retention it's composition is lacking about 5% tungsten to the M4 with similar (ish) levels of carbon, vanadium, and chromium.

A big boon for me is I can hopefully buy it in a Delica. Nice to try out a steel for about $60

[can't freehand]

So.....are we getting a HAP40 Endura run or no? When?

[Blerv]

So.....are we getting a HAP40 Endura run or no? When?

This thread seems to have come about by a hint from Sal that they have been playing with the steel and might do a run of the various FRN models. In theory that puts it a ways out.

Granted, we have been surprised before. The Superblue knives came in a frenzy. I just wouldn't hold-off shopping for holidays on the basis these are going to drop in the near future.