Spyderco and Cold Steel "collaboration" of sorts.

[WorkingEdge]

Dear OP,

I've learned a lot about knives and steels here, mostly by doing a lot of reading and asking questions respectfully.

Regarding Cliff, in general he is considered quite knowledgeable about metallurgy, as are MANY members here.

This is a very fun forum to be a part of, so long as you don't make to many enemies with your tone and I hope I didn't offend you with mine.

[PHP87]

That may be true, but questioning whether CTS-XHP isn't as good as VG10 is laughable.

VG10 has a Carbon content of about 1.00% compared to CTS_XHP that has a Carbon content of 1.60%, not to mention higher percentages of needed metals like Chromium, Vanadium and Nickel.

People are twisting themselves into pretzels in an attempt to say that VG10 is better, along with saying the Civi is a better knife than the BT II

I don't need to handle both knives to know that the better steel, better lock, better ergonomics, thumb jimping, ambidextrous clip, G-10 handle and lower price make it a better knife at a better price.

Trying to rationalize differently is blind loyalty at its worst.

Like I said, put 10 knife aficionado's in front of the two knives and all 10 will pick the BT II, even if it were priced the same as the Civi.

It's a huge improvement over the Civi. Sadly, some are blinded by brand loyalty and can't see what's right in front of them.

[Surfingringo]

PHP87, is cts-xhp "better" than A2? Which one would you rather see in a knife like the Civilian...and why? Cliff was trying to point out to you that you aren't even making a rational claim when you generically state that one steel is better than another. Its like saying "a hammer is a better tool than a saw." Better at what? What characteristics are you looking for out of a steel in this type of knife? Do you actually want to learn something? Because there is much you could learn from many of the contributors in this thread. And most of them would be happy to help you.

If you just want to revel in your ignorance then it would be nice if you could do so more quietly. :)

[sal]

Hi Cliff,

Perhaps you are correct. We'll see?

Thanx Lance, Jim and the rest of you, as well.

Hi PHP,

It appears that you are passionate about knives. That's a good thing. I've always said that "passion is the spice in the spirit that makes excellence possible". You seem to know some about our industry, which is also a good thing. While I'm sure you've done your research, I thought to share some info about CTS-XHP and VG-10.

Carpenter came to us several years ago and asked us to help them develop blade steels and help them to add their offerings to the knife industry. We helped them develop their line of blade steels and introduced most of them into the industry. We tested for them and consulted with them on what characteristic each steel would need. They are very skilled metallurgists and it was great working with them. We also introduced Crucible into the knife industry back in the 90's. That's why Carpenter came to us.

We've been to Carpenter's (and Crucible's) foundries. We watched them make CTS-XHP. We also introduced VG-10 into the industry in the late 90's and the president of Takefu foundry (VG-10) and his family regularly visit us at the Blade show for our efforts with VG-10.

Cliff also regularly speaks with Carpenter's salesman and metallurgists. In fact Ron, Jim (from Carpenter) and I had a conversation about Cliff last Thursday a week ago when we met with them in Atlanta. We have many here with knowledge and passion for the edge. We are all part of the "Clan of the Edge".

I believe that you believe Lynn's variation of our Civilian is "better" than our Civilian for the reasons you argue, and that is your opinion. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, which I respect. I simply do not agree with you, which is also ok. We are all independent thinkers here.

I find you attitude a bit combative, but I believe as you hang around here, as I would hope, I believe your attitude will soften. You will learn you are safe here among many knife experts. Some of whom might agree with you and some who might not.

With our forum, "Enter not ye of narrow mind for thy understanding will be open to suggestion". All in a friendly and cooperative manner. We are all teachers and we are all students and I'm sure we can learn from you and likewise.

I would ask that you look inside and see that perhaps your brand loyalty might be blinding you to a learning opportunity with like minded folks.

sal

[Bodog]

Hi Cliff,

Perhaps you are correct. We'll see?

Thanx Lance, Jim and the rest of you, as well.

Hi PHP,

It appears that you are passionate about knives. That's a good thing. I've always said that "passion is the spice in the spirit that makes excellence possible". You seem to know some about our industry, which is also a good thing. While I'm sure you've done your research, I thought to share some info about CTS-XHP and VG-10.

Carpenter came to us several years ago and asked us to help them develop blade steels and help them to add their offerings to the knife industry. We helped them develop their line of blade steels and introduced most of them into the industry. We tested for them and consulted with them on what characteristic each steel would need. They are very skilled metallurgists and it was great working with them. We also introduced Crucible into the knife industry back in the 90's. That's why Carpenter came to us.

We've been to Carpenter's (and Crucible's) foundries. We watched them make CTS-XHP. We also introduced VG-10 into the industry in the late 90's and the president of Takefu foundry (VG-10) and his family regularly visit us at the Blade show for our efforts with VG-10.

Cliff also regularly speaks with Carpenter's salesman and metallurgists. In fact Ron, Jim (from Carpenter) and I had a conversation about Cliff last Thursday a week ago when we met with them in Atlanta. We have many here with knowledge and passion for the edge. We are all part of the "Clan of the Edge".

I believe that you believe Lynn's variation of our Civilian is "better" than our Civilian for the reasons you argue, and that is your opinion. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, which I respect. I simply do not agree with you, which is also ok. We are all independent thinkers here.

I find you attitude a bit combative, but I believe as you hang around here, as I would hope, I believe your attitude will soften. You will learn you are safe here among many knife experts. Some of whom might agree with you and some who might not.

With our forum, "Enter not ye of narrow mind for thy understanding will be open to suggestion". All in a friendly and cooperative manner. We are all teachers and we are all students and I'm sure we can learn from you and likewise.

I would ask that you look inside and see that perhaps your brand loyalty might be blinding you to a learning opportunity with like minded folks.

sal

That statement made me smile for some odd reason. Maybe it's the booze.

[Cliff Stamp]

That may be true, but questioning whether CTS-XHP isn't as good as VG10 is laughable.

Here is the reality of steels - there is no such thing as a better steel, steels are just materials. Pine isn't a better wood than spruce, oak isn't better than balsa. Saying that oak is better than balsa is meaningless, it isn't true or false . In order to give it meaning you have to define how better is being evaluated . Balsa for example is lighter than oak, it is easier to cut and shape and both of those attributes make it a superior choice over oak in many applications. However oak is much harder than balsa, it is much heavier and stronger and is more resistant to scratching, hence for other applications oak is superior to balsa.

In regards to CTS-XHP, yes it has a higher amount of carbon than VG-10 which increases the carbide volume and the abrasive wear resistance. However it also decreases toughness, decreases grindability, decreases apex stability and decreases corrosion resistance. It should be obvious that it isn't at all meaningful to say doing that to a steel makes it "better" as various properties increase and various properties decreases. Now it might be the case that you value the properties that increase and don't value the properties that decrease, but it certainly is not true that someone having a difference set of values is wrong.

For example consider 1084 vs D2. D2 has a much higher level of carbon and carbide formers and has a much higher abrasion resistance than 1084. However a lot of people do not consider 1084 to be inferior to D2 for a wide range of knives. They infact consider 1084 to be superior because it has higher grindability, ease of sharpening, toughness, apex stability, maximum obtainable hardness and ease of working/finishing. Again, another maker/user could say D2 is better, Dozier for example as they value wear resistance more than those other properties.

In short, no steel is better than another, they are different materials and have different properties.

[Nate]

I'm not particularly interested in either of these knives, but as a thought experiment we have serrated self-defense knives that as posited in this thread should see little to no use and virtually never need to be sharpened.

If this is the case, what practical advantage would a steel with increased wear resistance have? Maybe a truly superior choice would be something like H1, which could offer increased toughness for violent contact with bone and sinew, and world-class corrosion resistance when the blade is drenched in the blood of your adversaries? :D

[Surfingringo]

I'm not particularly interested in either of these knives, but as a thought experiment we have serrated self-defense knives that as posited in this thread should see little to no use and virtually never need to be sharpened.

If this is the case, what practical advantage would a steel with increased wear resistance have? Maybe a truly superior choice would be something like H1, which could offer increased toughness for violent contact with bone and sinew, and world-class corrosion resistance when the blade is drenched in the blood of your adversaries? :D

Thats a great point Nate. Given its extreme toughness and how well it performs in serrated edge, h1 would probably be an excellent choice for a knife like the civilian.

[Archimedes]

First of all, I didn't start the thread regarding the apparent collaboration between CS and Spyderco.

Second, one doesn't have to own either or both knives to make a valid comparison.

I've outlined the improvements of the CS BT II like the Tri-Ad lock, thumb plate vs. bird's eye opening, deeper, more ergonomic finger grooves (Not to mention safer) Ambidextrous clip, better steel, Dual Liners, Thumb Jimping and the lower price.

These are all FACTS that can be seen or read in the spec sheet.

I don't have to drive or own a 7th Gen Corvette to know it's a better car than the latest iteration of the Camaro, even though the Corvette costs more.

Perhaps you won't debate which knife is better because you can't.

How could the Civi be made better? It has been. It's called the CS Black Talon II and CS will sell them faster than they can make them most likely.

Unfortunately, Spyderco sat on the same design for nearly 25 years and made few improvements (VG-10 over ATS-55 and a few other basic enhancements) but the knife was basically the same for 25 years.

No surprise that another knife maker took the design and brought it up to date, improved it and sells it at about 2/3rds the price for a better knife.

Spyderco rested on their laurels, plain and simple. Let's see if they come up with a new, improved Civi that can compete with the BT II

And if I've offended anyone, sorry, but I speak my mind and as mentioned, competition benefits all of us.

The Colt 1911. Has not changed much either. Sure you could argue a Wilson 1911 built today is better than a 1911 issued over hundred years ago. They still do exactly the same thing, launch 230 grain slugs down range. The Civilian is like a 1911. The design was brought to us by Spyderco and is timeless. The copies just reinforce that. Cold Steel has an interpretation and you like it, that is awesome for you. Personally, I hate waved knives. That rules out the Cold Steel right there for me.

[Studey]

I'm not particularly interested in either of these knives, but as a thought experiment we have serrated self-defense knives that as posited in this thread should see little to no use and virtually never need to be sharpened.

If this is the case, what practical advantage would a steel with increased wear resistance have? Maybe a truly superior choice would be something like H1, which could offer increased toughness for violent contact with bone and sinew, and world-class corrosion resistance when the blade is drenched in the blood of your adversaries? :D

Thats a great point Nate. Given its extreme toughness and how well it performs in serrated edge, h1 would probably be an excellent choice for a knife like the civilian.

I have a thread going on the USN asking trying to get support that the next USN forum knife is an H1 Matriarch.

[Cliff Stamp]

To be frank, if the knife is actually intended and going to be used in a self-defense role it is hard to make a practical argument for any steel beyond something as simple as 420HC.

[PHP87]

Personally, I think 440C would have sufficed on a SD knife as it will not be used for daily tasks and will not need regular sharpening.

That being said, I have a basic understanding of the various elements that go into making SS blades and what role they play.

Carbon: More is better, but not too much. It's most important role is hardening the steel and at 1.60% in the Carpenter steel CTS-ZHP is considered a high-carbon steel.

Chromium: Used for increased wear, hardness, corrosion resistance and strength. Minimum amount for SS is generally around 10-12%. Carpenter steel is 16.00% Chromium.

Molybdenum: Resists brittleness and chipping and helps with achieving strength at high temps.

Nickel: Adds strength and toughness to the steel and puts a nice shine on the steel as well.

Manganese: Improves molecule structure and helps make the steel stronger and harder along with wear resistance and also prevents brittleness/chipping.

Vanadium: Helps with wear resistance and hardness.

Too much or too little of any of the above can result in bad steel, so it's important to find the right balance and to also acheive an high RC that resists chipping/breaking, but is harder to sharpen but holds and edge better.

The Quench is also an important part of the process as well.

Again, I'm no expert on knive steel or any other types of steel, but this is basically what I've picked up over the years reading about steel.

IMO, Carbon and Chromium are the two most important elements and the next important step is the Quench if not the most important.

And for the record, I have no issue with Spyderco products. I own 3 of their knives including the aforementioned Civi which I spent $165 on, but I felt the lack of jimping is a major weakness on the knife and I was actually going to have a machine shop add some thumb jimping, but I will retire the Civi and instead buy the BT II.

The Civi was my EDC knife for years, so obviously, I have no bias against Spyderco. I happen to think that the BT II is an improvement over the Civi for the reasons I've already mentioned.

The only thing I like more on the Civi is the design of the Serrations. I feel that a SD knife should have serrations to rip thru thick clothing and that they are plain nasty.

IMO, an SD knife should be used to "slash and run" - in other words, slash your attacker's dominant hand if possible, or any other exposed area which will slow him down and give you a chance to extract yourself from the situation.

Some people want a "Stabber" instead of a "Slasher" This is ridiculous in my opinion as one has to get close to their attacker to stab them and a stab wound is more likely to be fatal than a slash to the hand or forearm.

Some entertain ideas of engaging in a knife fight with an attacker. Again, a ridiculous premise as there are no winners in a knife fight, only survivors. Sometimes.

I've repeatedly written why I believe the BT II is better than the Civi. Again, I have no "favorite" as I own several brands of knives including the Swiss Army knife I was given for my 12th B-Day in 1972 and the Buck 110 I was gifted for my 16th B-Day in 1976 along with a variety of CS, Spyderco, Emersons, SOGs, CRKT's as well as others.

Most just sit in a collection in a felt lined walnut? box that I acquired at a flea market for $5.00 and it's probably worth 10x as much although I will need a bigger box soon.

But again, the steel isn't really an issue as 440C, or even 9Cr13MoV, a steel that I feel is very underrated would suffice on an SD knife.

The other issues have been repeated several times and the steel is mainly a non-factor.

Again, I'm grateful to Sal and Spyderco for making such a great SD knife available, but I strongly feel that CS has greatly improved upon the design.

That's open for debate and I understand that this a Spyderco fan forum, but I also believe people should put their biases aside and take an unbiased look at both knives.

I didn't come here to troll the site. I found the thread while researching the BT II which is scheduled for release sometime in July.

Again, if I offended anyone, sorry, but I write on forums the same way I would speak to a group of friends discussing knives or girls or any other subject. My blunt manner may rub some people the wrong way, but I assure you, it's not personal.

Thanks Sal and everyone else that has contributed to this thread and I'm looking forward to a hands on comparison of the two knives.

I just hope some people can put their biases aside and not nitpick and make something out of nothing when the BT II hits the market like some of the Sebenza snobs.

[PHP87]

First of all, I didn't start the thread regarding the apparent collaboration between CS and Spyderco.

Second, one doesn't have to own either or both knives to make a valid comparison.

I've outlined the improvements of the CS BT II like the Tri-Ad lock, thumb plate vs. bird's eye opening, deeper, more ergonomic finger grooves (Not to mention safer) Ambidextrous clip, better steel, Dual Liners, Thumb Jimping and the lower price.

These are all FACTS that can be seen or read in the spec sheet.

I don't have to drive or own a 7th Gen Corvette to know it's a better car than the latest iteration of the Camaro, even though the Corvette costs more.

Perhaps you won't debate which knife is better because you can't.

How could the Civi be made better? It has been. It's called the CS Black Talon II and CS will sell them faster than they can make them most likely.

Unfortunately, Spyderco sat on the same design for nearly 25 years and made few improvements (VG-10 over ATS-55 and a few other basic enhancements) but the knife was basically the same for 25 years.

No surprise that another knife maker took the design and brought it up to date, improved it and sells it at about 2/3rds the price for a better knife.

Spyderco rested on their laurels, plain and simple. Let's see if they come up with a new, improved Civi that can compete with the BT II

And if I've offended anyone, sorry, but I speak my mind and as mentioned, competition benefits all of us.

The Colt 1911. Has not changed much either. Sure you could argue a Wilson 1911 built today is better than a 1911 issued over hundred years ago. They still do exactly the same thing, launch 230 grain slugs down range. The Civilian is like a 1911. The design was brought to us by Spyderco and is timeless. The copies just reinforce that. Cold Steel has an interpretation and you like it, that is awesome for you. Personally, I hate waved knives. That rules out the Cold Steel right there for me.

I also dislike the wave feature and do not use them. I prefer to have my hand control the deployment of the blade, not my pocket.

But I also prefer a thumb plate over a bird eye opening, especially with wet hands.

[Cliff Stamp]

Again, I'm no expert on knive steel or any other types of steel, but this is basically what I've picked up over the years reading about steel.

It looks like you are reading marketing information and essentially severely diluted generalizations, the reality is very different. If you want to understand steel then I would suggest you start with Verhoeven's book on steel metallurgy for knifemakers. As just one point of how elements in steel actually work vs the common generalizations :

Vanadium

In small amounts, for micro-alloying which is typically in amounts of a tenth of a percent, Vanadium is added as a grain refiner. Vanadium will form very stable carbides, by stable it means they tend to not dissolve at typical austenite temperatures. As they are not dissolved they act to pin the grains and thus they keep the austenite grains small. This increases the strength and toughness of the steel significantly, but has no significant influence on hardness or wear resistance as the carbide volume is very small. This also increases the apex stability which increases high sharpness edge holding.

In large amounts, as the vanadium carbide volume increases the exact opposite starts to happen. The larger vanadium carbides (carbide sizes increase as the volume increase as they aggregate) act as cites for fracture and thus there is a decrease in toughness, a decrease in grindability/machinability and apex stability. Interestingly enough it (and tungsten) can have a small effect on increasing corrosion resistance as they aid in preventing chromium carbide precipitation in low tempers during low tempering soaks (it doesn't happen at high temperature soaks). The larger amount of vanadium carbides will increase abrasion resistance and direct compression strength.

In short, vanadium additions can make a steel tougher or more brittle, stronger or actually weaker depending on the amount of vanadium added and they can increase slightly or have no effect on corrosion resistance depending on the soak temperature and tempering temperature.

--

In general when you see things like "molybdenum is added to increase blah" this is sort of like reading "running is good exercise for cardiovascular health" it isn't an absolute just a general sort of comment and you can't really use it to do any kind of significant decision. Imagine for example someone who has foot injuries, is severely over weight, who lives in extreme heat, etc. . It would be easy to see why running could be severely problematic to their health. In the same way adding Molybdenum can be done for :

-increasing hardenability
-promoting secondary hardness
-increasing corrosion resistance

But simply because Molybdenum is in the steel doesn't mean all of those happen, it will depend on what else is in the steel and the amounts of Molybdenum present.

[PHP87]

Again, I'm not an expert on metal or a metallurgist.

These are just some of the basics I picked up over the years and although the Carpenter steel is better than VG10, the knife could very well do with a lesser, softer steel especially with the razor thin tip that might break on a harder steel.

Or, one may want to put a wicked edge on their BT II which is where the Carpenter steel would have an advantage over VG10

Thanks for taking the time and effort to share your knowledge of metals.

[Liquid Cobra]

Not gonna lie, this thread has made me want to buy a Civilian just have one in my collection.

[Liquid Cobra]

The only thing I like more on the Civi is the design of the Serrations. I feel that a SD knife should have serrations to rip thru thick clothing and that they are plain nasty.

You might want to think twice about your opinion on serrations in a self defense role. Michael Janich has done some testing on serrations vs a plain edge and he seems to favour the plain edge.

The hardest clothing to cut through is loose cloth that moves easily over the target. If you consider typical gangbanger fashion, you have oversized, loose-fitting clothing that moves easily and hides weapons very well. To determine what edge works best, I take a "pork man" target and cover it with various types of clothing. I then cut it and quantify the results. In general terms, I've found that a good, sharp, plain-edged blade with good edge geometry consistently cuts better. Serrations often tend to "grab" the cloth and spin it with the force of the cut, dissipating the force and producing shallow cuts. Combination edges do a little better, but can still grab the cloth.

Stay safe,

Mike

The original thread is here if you want to do some reading.

http://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtop ... ns#p580995" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[frank k]

I think H1 would be an amazing steel for the Civilian and Matriarchs; mainly for it's toughness, it's extreme rust proofness and edge holding that is as good as VG10 in serrated form are bonuses.

[Surfingringo]

I think H1 would be an amazing steel for the Civilian and Matriarchs; mainly for it's toughness, it's extreme rust proofness and edge holding that is as good as VG10 in serrated form are bonuses.

Going off topic a bit, I have recently fallen in love with the lil Matriarch as a utilitarian edc. I would LOVE to see that design offered in a "salt" version. I find the design significantly more useful than my Tasman salt.

[Cliff Stamp]

You might want to think twice about your opinion on serrations in a self defense role. Michael Janich has done some testing on serrations vs a plain edge and he seems to favour the plain edge.

This isn't a consensus though, it is pretty easy to find others making the exact opposite argument, Chas Clements for one for example. The problem is that the claims are so vague that they likely are not actually contradictory.

-what kind of clothes are being cut through
-what is the strength/speed of the attacker
-how are the cuts being made, extent of the draw/slice

Without these being specified the answer of plain vs serrated can go either way.