Elmax and M390 ?

[JoeKansas]

I saw that the sprint run of the Squeak will have Elmax steel. I have no experience with Elmax or M390. From my EDC experience I personally rank: 1. ZDP189 2. S30V and tied for 3. VG10 and N690Co. Based on these rankings, where would you place Elmax and M390 ? Thanks in advance for your help. Joe.

[Holland]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... -quot-rope" target="_blank

[Ankerson]

ELMAX will generally be slightly better than S30V in edge retention depending on the variables, M390 depending on the variables would be slightly better than ELMAX.

Depending on actual use a person may or may not see the difference.

[Holland]

[QUOTE=Ankerson;8921414]
Category 1

CPM-S90V (Military and Para 2) (60)
CTS-20CP (Para 2) (60)
M390 (Mule) (60.5)
CTS - 204P (Para 2)

Category 2

M390 (60)
CPM M4 (62.5)
CPM-S90V (59) (Manix 2 with 30 Degree Micro Bevel)
CPM-S60V
VANAX 75 (Kershaw Tilt)

Category 3

Vanax 35 (59.5)


Category 4

ZDP-189 (65)
CPM-154 (62)
ELMAX (60)
CTS-XHP (Military) (60+)
Super Blue (61.5)
CPM 3V (Big Chris)


Category 5

S30V (60)
VG-1
CPM - D2 (62)
N690
ATS-34 (59)
CPM-S35VN (59)
N680
ELMAX (58.5) Mule
D2 - Dozier K2

Category 6

INFI
154CM (61)
14C28N
CTS-B75P (Mule)

Category 7

VG-10
S30V (58.5)
AUS-8A
SG-2
5160 (55)
13C26N
X-15
440C (Big Chris)

Category 8

H-1
420 HC (Buck 110)

Category 9

CTS-BD1
[/QUOTE]

[tvenuto]

From your rankings? It appears you value high hardness/carbide volume. From that, I would say: 1. ZDP 2. M390 3. Elmax 4. S30V and 5. VG10. You might not notice a huge difference between Elmax and S30V. But then you might. Again all this depends on how you sharpen and what you cut.

[Cliff Stamp]

You might not notice a huge difference between Elmax and S30V.

That is almost guaranteed, the difference in the steel from batch to batch + processing alone is much larger. But that isn't the real issue.

Just think about this - the speed that you cut something is quadratic with the energy of impacts which is what causes the blade when it hits something to either dent/roll/fracture. This means that for example if a blade has say a 30% greater impact toughness, in order to even see that in use, your speed of cutting has to be controlled to within 1.5% - good luck. If your speed variability is higher then you will struggle even seeing a difference.

The easiest way to think about it is just think about a simple scale for weights. Imagine you have some weights : 10 lbs, 11, lbs, 12 lbs, etc. . If your scale is +/- 1 lbs then you won't be able to see a difference between the 10 and 11 lbs weights. You could in fact measure the 10 lbs weight to be heavier than the 11 lbs one. And the 10 and 12 lbs weights could appear to be the exact same even though there is a 20% difference.

In general you want to be able to measure an effect to 1/10th its size to be able to detect it even significantly, let alone with any precision. Given all the random/systematic influences which come into play in knives, most people are just seeing what they think should happen. The methods don't allow anything else.

If you talk about edge retention it is similar, but worse because the influences just add up as you don't just have speed, you have angle variation, material variability, etc. . Hence if you look at patent information you can see for example CATRA results on several pieces of steel cut from the exact same bar varying by 50%. Is it reasonable to think anyone can cut by hand on random material and get better precision than a CATRA machine?

Steve Harvey made an argument many years ago after sitting down with a pile of knives that the most he would claim is that if someone had the exact same knife, sharpened the exact same way, then he could see them picking out 420V (S90V) vs 420HC, anything else he found was so difficult to determine that he could not reliably see a difference. Again he was just cutting cardboard, but the argument holds in general.

Here is some actual materials data on Elmax, M390 and S90v :

-http://www.kau.se/sites/default/files/D ... _19432.pdf

Note how similar m390 and Elmax are which would be expected, S90V has a much higher low stress wear (due to the very high vanadium). But note further that wear resistance is extremely sensitive to the size of the abrasive particles because if the abrasive particles being hit by the steel are much smaller than the carbides in the steel then the steel behaves very differently than if the particles are much larger than the carbides.

Back to the original question, these steels (Elmax, m390, S30V) are so similar that I would suggest you focus on the knife vs the steel.

[Ankerson]

ELMAX, S35VN and S30V are all in that sweet spot performance wise for stainless steels as in they are well balanced performance wise and can be interchangeable in general.

S35VN and ELMAX have a slight advantage in that they can be pushed into the higher HRC ranges into the 62-63 range if needed for max edge retention, S30V is for the most part maxed out in the 60-61 range due to chipping issues if it's pushed too high. S35VN is starting to become more used in the custom knives and getting pushed into the higher HRC ranges and seems to be doing well from reports that I have heard.

But take all 3 steels at a normal 60 HRC in like production blades with like geometry and comparable HT protocols it would be hard to tell the difference between the 3 steels in normal use for the ave person.

In custom blades with specified HT protocols is were the real differences can show up depending on the actual knives and intended use.

That's also were M390/CPM 20CV will start to shine depending on what the knife is designed for, it's a very versatile steel adaptable to various uses from thin slicers to harder use blades.

In the end one can't really go wrong with any of the 4 steels. :)

[JoeKansas]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. The information has been really helpful. :) Joe.

[3rdGenRigger]

I don't scientifically test anything, but I do cut the same sort of materials at work so I do have at least a small amount of comparison info I can make. I have 2 ParaMilitary 2's, one in CPM S30V and one in CTS-204P (The carpenter steel equivalent to M390), and I can say that I've had better luck regarding edge retention with the 204P PM2. It's my current favourite stainless steel.

[MacLaren]

I love Carpenters 204P. Got it on both my Domino and Southard.

[JNewell]

I would suggest you focus on the knife vs the steel.

You should be v very careful with advice like that.

If anyone took you seriously, it could bring about the end of the internet as we know it. :eek: :D :spyder:

[paladin]

I am not a knife tester, but I play one on TV...

And the main performance difference the average user will notice between those steels is in how much funds they can accelerate to terminal velocity out of your bank account before it reaches critical mass...

let's look at some data I've collected:

1. Elmax, cuts cardboard really, really well...accelerates thru my Citibank CC statement envelope extrafast.

2. m390, cuts cardboard really, really well...shears thru Citibank Platinum credit cards also with no rolling, chipping, or visible deformation of the apex.
Question: Are those Platinum cards really made of platinum? If they are...then I want move m390 ahead of Elmax on my list.

3. s30v, cuts cardboard really, really well also.

4. vg10, cuts cardboard identically to s30v.

[3rdGenRigger]

I find S30V cuts cardboard better than VG-10. VG-10 takes less time to sharpen (I haven't tested as such scienficically, but I suspect it would be more stable at a more acute edge angle, but at a loss of retainable working edge cutting through an abrasive material like cardboard...just through my own sharpening and useage), and seems to hold a high initial sharpness longer, but S30V can do a better working edge if you can't sharpen in the field. 204P (And M390) are in a higher echelon in my experience when it comes to performance. I'm sure there are circumstances where you could make either of the 3 steels come out as the victor, but for my own personal uses, I find S30V outperforms VG-10, and 204P outperforms both.

[Cliff Stamp]

You should be v very careful with advice like that.

Science, it works.

Now I would of course argue that the steel used for knives is important in regards to the performance of the knife, but in general, the reality is that it takes large differences in steels to get large differences in how they perform. If I was getting a knife made, say one to cut brush then any of these would be excellent :

-4340, H13, 1050, 5160, S7, Calmax

these would be ok :

-3V, A2, O1, AEB-L

these would be not very ok :

-D2, ATS-34, S30V, Elmax

these would be really not very ok at all :

-10V, S90V, 121REX

It takes a pretty big jump for you to notice moving out of the group. It is no different if you ask me to carry an apple, orange or pear. They are all basically the same weight, it doesn't really matter which one I carry and which one you do. But if one of us has to carry one of them and the other a watermelon or pumpkin, well it might be something to think about.

[JNewell]

You should be v very careful with advice like that.

Science, it works.

Now I would of course argue that the steel used for knives is important in regards to the performance of the knife, but in general, the reality is that it takes large differences in steels to get large differences in how they perform. If I was getting a knife made, say one to cut brush then any of these would be excellent :

-4340, H13, 1050, 5160, S7, Calmax

these would be ok :

-3V, A2, O1, AEB-L

these would be not very ok :

-D2, ATS-34, S30V, Elmax

these would be really not very ok at all :

-10V, S90V, 121REX

It takes a pretty big jump for you to notice moving out of the group. It is no different if you ask me to carry an apple, orange or pear. They are all basically the same weight, it doesn't really matter which one I carry and which one you do. But if one of us has to carry one of them and the other a watermelon or pumpkin, well it might be something to think about.

Cliff, I think you may have taken a part of the post and replied out of context. It was humor. And for what it's worth, I totally agree with your posts (both of them).

[Cliff Stamp]

Yes, I realize that, I just wanted to clarify as earlier, in rereading, it could have been implied as a generalization when I noted to focus on the knife not the steel.

[Bodog]

It is no different if you ask me to carry an apple, orange or pear. They are all basically the same weight, it doesn't really matter which one I carry and which one you do. But if one of us has to carry one of them and the other a watermelon or pumpkin, well it might be something to think about.

If that's the case, you can carry the pumpkin, I'll carry the pear.

[Cliff Stamp]

If that's the case, you can carry the pumpkin, I'll carry the pear.

Get real dude. I would convince you that your subjective opinion isn't a valid basis for conclusions about fruit bearing responsibility and demand a rotational frequency of load distribution to ensure proper "scientific" hiking.

[3rdGenRigger]

Get real dude. I would convince you that your subjective opinion isn't a valid basis for conclusions about fruit bearing responsibility and demand a rotational frequency of load distribution to ensure proper "scientific" hiking.

That's worth a fair chuckle lol.

[VashHash]

I'd say purchase the knife and try out the steel. Can't be that bad. Never played with elmax yet but i do love M390. If i had to choose between the 2 though i would stick with M390 some will argue back and forth of proper heat treating and usage i will just say more chromium, vanadium and Wolfram. Wolfram sounds like something i would want in all my knives. Wolfram.. Wolfram WOLFRAM!!!! now you try it.