Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Future?

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demoncase
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#41

Post by demoncase »

I love to see these well-reasoned material science responses to a question. Reminds me of my happier days in the lab developing ceramics for high Er microwave frequency applications.

What it highlights is that a well developed, properly heat treated steel ticks pretty much all of the boxes that are needed in a knife application-
- There are harder materials, there are completely oxidation proof materials, there are materials that retain their edge longer, there are stronger materials, there are lighter materials- but all of them have one or more big downsides to humble ol' steel- it's good we are investing in the research to look for an alternative, but so far it's been a tough act to follow....That should be food for thought for us, as a species. ;)
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#42

Post by mikerestivo »

Cliff Stamp wrote:Before you jump into ceramics and solid carbide blades there are a few options in what are only loosely steels :

-121REX
-MaxaMet

These are two steels which are capable of a working hardness of 70+ HRC with extreme carbide volumes and severe resistance to abrasive wear. However they are still steels and can still be worked with regular stones. I zero ground a 121-REX knife from Farid with a basic waterstone (700X Bester), mainly out of curiosity. These are among the strongest and most wear resistant steels available. They are not solid carbide, but they are much closer to it than something like S30V.

However, and this is where it gets a little interesting, even among the people who most strongly promote high carbide steels, most will back off from those materials in regards to advocating they are some kind of superior material. The carbide volume is so high that the ability to hold a high sharpness edge is fairly reduced. But if you are looking a holding a low sharpness for an extremely long time they are some fairly interesting choices. I am still trying to figure how how to sharpen them to optimize the performance but they can do some interesting things.

For example, take a S30V knife blade (or whatever you want) and draw it, edge down, along a sharpening stone - what happens? If you look at the edge now you will see it reflect light. Do that with a 70+ HRC 121 REX blade and very little happens, it is extremely resistant to being ground or impacted. A piece of solid carbide, or solid sintered ceramic takes this one step further.

In regards to grinding solid carbide or ceramic, diamond abrasives will cut them readily. The guy who sells Trend abrasives on YT always takes out carbide tools and shows how easy they grind on diamond abrasives. Diamond is as hard compared to carbide tools as they are to warm butter. The main issue in sharpening them is that they won't form that kind of fatigued burr that is popular in sharpening and the edge is much more likely to fracture than deform.

However, as an aside, from wading into the technical, you can buy a ceramic knife now for about $5. They may not come with a great sharpness, the edge angle may be too high, but diamond plates are now pretty cheap and ultra-fine pastes are common. There is no issue in sharpening them, people have got them face shaving sharp - again, you just can't rely on burr formation.

As another aside, something else you might want to look at at UHC steels in the ~67 HRC range. These are very low alloy (aside from carbon) steels which are capable of very high hardness and thus offer extreme resistance to deformation/rolling, but can still be ground on conventional abrasives, can be burr sharpened and can take a variety of finishes and are much tougher than the extreme steels like 121REX. There are also super alloys which use cobalt vs iron as the matrix to hold a huge volume of carbides and there are odd things like FerroTi which has a massive amount of Titanium Carbide (up to 45%), is again ~70 HRC, and uses steel just as the binder.

With all of these you start off by asking a simple question :

-what kind of performance do I want to increase in the knife

and from there you look what material and processing can improve it.

I have a friend who has a ceramic knife I gave him years ago. He loves it. He has never sharpened it and uses it all the time to cut up vegetables. I don't think he will ever sharpen it. It can't rust. It is very light. It isn't what I would call sharp, but tolerances for that differ wildly.
This is one of the best posts that I have read on this forum. Informative and entertaining, and it did not become so technical that I went cross-eyed. Thanks for taking the time to post Cliff.
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#43

Post by Cliff Stamp »

Thanks.

I have been focusing on abrasives lately as I don't know much about it and moving into a new field is really exciting as each day you constantly peel back your own ignorance. A large difference that I see between industrial applications and what we see in knives is the way the problems are approached.

In knives we often just get new materials used in an almost random way, which often is nothing more than "Hey look at this blade steel with a lot of letters/numbers and some exotic process.". But if we are looking for performance then the problem is approached in a completely different way. The first question should be - what way did the knife fail to perform?

This then leads to - what material properties are related to that failure? Then the obvious - what materials increase those properties?

So for example if you are having problems with a vitrified wheel and surface finish then resin bonds would be considered because they give superior surface finish. But if you have fine surface finish but the failure is in the grinding ratio (how much wheel is lose vs how much material is ground) then you would not consider a resin bond as it doesn't improve that.

There are lots of developments in steels on a constant basis, uses of nitrogen as a martensite former, niobium to replace vanadium, ultra-high strength bainite, extreme speed quenching, etc. . Imagine a steel like 52100, only stainless, harder and instead of chromium carbides it had CBN infused throughout the steel.
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#44

Post by Cliff Stamp »

bluntcut wrote:Thanks Cliff. I am looking forward to hearing your take on this mart-ultra-quench, share here or on your forum. Is it related to on going UHC research?
I was not specifically looking for it, I just do a literature search on things like martensite, carbides, grain size, etc. every month or so and see what turns up. I will do a review of the paper on the website shortly as well as look at the work that follows it from the same authors. In any case it is clear that extreme speed quenching has significant influence on the nature and extent of martensite formation.
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#45

Post by JD Spydo »

Cliff I find it interesting you mentioned "Abrasives" and your studying of different ones. Because that was one thing I was wanting to find out about when doing this thread. I was wondering if sintered materials are now used or are proposed to be used as super-abrasives at some point. Because with materials like cubic boron nitride being somewhat close to diamond on the Moh's Hardness Scale I think we are seeing a new generation of abrasives unfolding before our eyes here of late.

I hope I'm not too far off the subject matter of sintered materials that you and solidstate have been speaking of. But with the superior properties that some sintered materials have it just makes me wonder if abrasives are going to be done with those types of materials or if there is anything out there already that is comparable?

Also are there any natural materials (other than diamond) that have abrasive properties like CBN and some of the other relatively new abrasives? Because I've heard that novaculite ( Arkansas Stones) for instance are not even hard enough to take on some of these newer steels. But I don't know about other natural abrasives like coticules ( Belgium Razor Stone) or even rubies for that matter. But what about abrasives and where they are in the arena of sintered materials?
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#46

Post by Bill1170 »

Natural rubies and sapphires are both crystalline aluminum oxide. They will cut every steel.
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#47

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

Bill1170 wrote:Natural rubies and sapphires are both crystalline aluminum oxide. They will cut every steel.

Great point. I also like Cliff Stamp's statement on a variation of 52100 that is stainless and infused with cubic boron nitride.

Eventually bulk processes dealing with massive herds of atoms will be replaced with atomic precision manufacturing and assembly, and man, would we see some superb cutlery matter then.
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#48

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SpyderEdgeForever wrote:Eventually bulk processes dealing with massive herds of atoms will be replaced with atomic precision manufacturing and assembly, and man, would we see some superb cutlery matter then.
Except atomic precision manufacturing will not replace how we do these things as it will NEVER be cost effective for these applications as long as time is an issue. Perhaps you don't understand that there are roughly 6 x10^23 atoms in 2 ounces of steel. At an atom a second, that will be 2 x 10^16 years to make a knife with atomically-precise engineering. Name me one company willing to pay 10^15 generations of highly-trained workers to make one knife.

Also, in order to have additive atomic precision, you need to maintain vacuum pressures of 10^-6 to 10^-9 torr or less for the entire time you run the process - or unwanted atoms will get in. Perhaps you have no idea how costly vacuum equipment for atomic layer deposition is, but my buddy just bought a CHEAP system for 1.5 million, and it's maximum size capability is 6 inch diameters and 1 inch thick working pieces. It takes a day to deposit 100 nm of material, and 10 days to do 1 micrometer. The total cost of producing a micrometer of ceramic or metal using the tool is well over 100 times that of conventional processing.
In order to do atomic precision, you will never get rid of vacuum. You will always have huge cost associated with that. Current methods of making 10's of atoms precision placed in production quantities is multiple millions to tens of billions per line. I don't expect tools that don't require that type of manufacture will be manufactured using that method as it is not cost effective or lean in terms of manufacturing costs. Realism is just as important to understanding science and engineering as having an imagination.
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#49

Post by Cliff Stamp »

JD Spydo wrote: I was wondering if sintered materials are now used or are proposed to be used as super-abrasives at some point.
This issue gets a little semantic/technical at some point as many sharpening stones are sintered, in fact some waterstones such as the SPS-II stones are just silicon carbide sintered with no bonding media at all. However how you make an abrasive is very different than how you make a cutting tool even though the materials they are made from can be similar.

Ask yourself what is the difference between the carbide tooth on a saw blade, the carbides in a steel blade, the carbide applied to the back of titanium blades, etc. The carbide in all cases could in fact be the same - tungsten carbide, but how it does what it does is different in each case. Why would a carbide saw tooth not work very well to regrind a knife but a sharpening stone would not work very well to try to rip a piece of 2x4?

An abrasive is designed to interacts with the material it is cutting on a microscopic scale, the scale of the carbides. But cutting tools like saw teeth interact with the material they are cutting on a macroscopic scale. This is why one is commonly porous for example and one isn't.

There are modern materials which are harder than diamond and being investigated as abrasives because hardness alone isn't all that matters. There is resistance to fracture, chemical attack, heat transfer, etc. .
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#50

Post by gdwtvb »

SolidState wrote:
SpyderEdgeForever wrote:Eventually bulk processes dealing with massive herds of atoms will be replaced with atomic precision manufacturing and assembly, and man, would we see some superb cutlery matter then.
Except atomic precision manufacturing will not replace how we do these things as it will NEVER be cost effective for these applications as long as time is an issue. Perhaps you don't understand that there are roughly 6 x10^23 atoms in 2 ounces of steel. At an atom a second, that will be 2 x 10^16 years to make a knife with atomically-precise engineering. Name me one company willing to pay 10^15 generations of highly-trained workers to make one knife.

Also, in order to have additive atomic precision, you need to maintain vacuum pressures of 10^-6 to 10^-9 torr or less for the entire time you run the process - or unwanted atoms will get in. Perhaps you have no idea how costly vacuum equipment for atomic layer deposition is, but my buddy just bought a CHEAP system for 1.5 million, and it's maximum size capability is 6 inch diameters and 1 inch thick working pieces. It takes a day to deposit 100 nm of material, and 10 days to do 1 micrometer. The total cost of producing a micrometer of ceramic or metal using the tool is well over 100 times that of conventional processing.
In order to do atomic precision, you will never get rid of vacuum. You will always have huge cost associated with that. Current methods of making 10's of atoms precision placed in production quantities is multiple millions to tens of billions per line. I don't expect tools that don't require that type of manufacture will be manufactured using that method as it is not cost effective or lean in terms of manufacturing costs. Realism is just as important to understanding science and engineering as having an imagination.
I don't claim to be an engineer, but I do foresee a day when manufacturing will enter the atomic scale. Graphene, carbon nanotubes, buckyballs, and even carbon fiber was only available in elite labs not too long ago, now kevlar and the like are commodities that are readily available. Yeah, we're not going to be building a full blade ground up atom by atom anytime soon, but The CPM process of making steels has allowed for greater precision. I expect advances like this to continue and we will get closer and closer to manufacturing on the atomic level. Just as the CPM manufacturing process has brought us greater control, advances will continue. It doesn't have to use the extremely slow targeted brute force approach of handling an atom one at a time; over the counter drugs are nothing more than custom designed and mass manufactured molecules, we have been making things on the atomic scale for a very long time. We will figure out how to to do exercise the same control in the manufacture of metals eventually.

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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#51

Post by Bill1170 »

Manufacturing on the atomic level is something that happens in biology every day. It isn't such a reach to foresee a day when we could copy nature's nano processes. The key is having LOTS of nanobots assembling stuff in concert, like nature does.
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#52

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gdwtvb wrote: I don't claim to be an engineer, but I do foresee a day when manufacturing will enter the atomic scale. Graphene, carbon nanotubes, buckyballs, and even carbon fiber was only available in elite labs not too long ago, now kevlar and the like are commodities that are readily available. Yeah, we're not going to be building a full blade ground up atom by atom anytime soon, but The CPM process of making steels has allowed for greater precision. I expect advances like this to continue and we will get closer and closer to manufacturing on the atomic level. Just as the CPM manufacturing process has brought us greater control, advances will continue. It doesn't have to use the extremely slow targeted brute force approach of handling an atom one at a time; over the counter drugs are nothing more than custom designed and mass manufactured molecules, we have been making things on the atomic scale for a very long time. We will figure out how to to do exercise the same control in the manufacture of metals eventually.

Grizz
CPM size scale IS optimized. Crucible has spent a bunch of time, treasure, and effort optimizing particle size. Smaller isn't always better.
Graphene and Carbon nanotubes are still only applicable on lab scale. People still use tape to make graphene, and graphene is soluble in iron, so it doesn't maintain structure in iron.

Kevlar is a polymer, and polymerization reactions are extremely high yield in comparison to the other types of reactions you reference. Further - polymerization has been relatively well-understood since the 1950s. Kevlar is just fancy nylon. I literally made a batch of Kevlar last Thursday for one of my student groups of materials scientists. Bucky balls, nanotubes, polymers, sintered metals and pharmaceuticals are all so vastly different in production that it is really quite ridiculous to compare them.
Further, the cost of pharmaceuticals actually comes from the fact that we CANNOT put every atom where we want it. Typically, we can only get a small percentage - see 10% or less - to go where we want them to... and that's per step. Most pharmaceutical molecules require a minimum of three steps and most are 10 or more steps from raw material to drug - hence the high cost. Like most fields, the layman imagines a world far more ideal than those of us in the trenches experience every day.

I would like to share what the literal state-of-the-art in production-scale additive processing of inorganic materials is, and then go share a beer and a laugh with the scientists who literally define the current boundary of additive inorganic processing - as one of them is literally my best friend.
http://www.sematech.org/meetings/archiv ... /RE-08.pdf" target="_blank
It's not that I don't wish for the future you're pretending will exist, it's that I spend the time in the trenches trying my *** off to make it happen and therefore know the numbers and where the bodies are buried.
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#53

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Bill1170 wrote:Manufacturing on the atomic level is something that happens in biology every day. It isn't such a reach to foresee a day when we could copy nature's nano processes. The key is having LOTS of nanobots assembling stuff in concert, like nature does.
There's a reason that virtually nothing in nature has metallic claws or teeth. Nature typically requires water as a solvent for natural reactions, and water pulls electrons off of metals - giving oxide materials and hydrogen. Ever notice that virtually all teeth are bioceramic? The neatest research happening on the generation of bioceramics is coming out of the Estroff group at Cornell. It's the closest thing to what you describe currently happening and she is awesome to chat with.
http://estroff.mse.cornell.edu/" target="_blank
Some of my other friends are working on biologically engineering critters to make UHMWPE which, can have abrasive resistance similar to steel but it doesn't do edges nearly as well.

In jest, I'd like to point out that your statement is akin to this one:
Lions are strong, and they poop every day. It isn't such a reach to foresee a day when lions that let me ride them and poop lollipops. Don't tell me it won't happen - biological engineers have made glowing fish. The trick is having a lot of fairies working together to make the riding lollipop pooping lions.
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#54

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

SolidState: Thank you for your excellent input on the current state of the art and where some of it is leading. However, to dismiss enmass-parallel mechanosynthesis is very short-sighted. There is a place for both the types of systems you mention, and, the mechanosynthesis (not loose nanobots floating around, that is in theory possible but that is not where the real value is)-based atomic-precision assembly.

We must model the micro-world like we model the macro-world. There are certain aspects such as stiction and certain surface features that are different "down there", and gravity is not as large a concern as it is "up here", but, at the same time, when people dismiss the work of Drexler and others by claiming he is simply scaling down macroscopic machines to the molecular level and try to dismiss that, they are not looking at the whole picture.

The mechanics and physics down there are basically the same as the ones up here (macro-level) or else the entire universe would fall apart.
Bioorganisms and biological systems use wet-ware engineering and water-solvents because it is on the lower entropy scale and is cheaper energy wise. This in no way precludes other methods.

Let me give you some examples:

There is a man named Richard Jones from England who makes the claims that only "soft machines" based on biology can be built. I would counter this in two ways: One, to show that this is not the case, and two, to show that even using wetware, we can bootstrap dryware nanotechnology and while it would take more time, there is already a basis with protein engineering, viral and biological engineering, and other things, which you sortof pointed out.

For example: Nested carbon nanotubes have already been shown to have very low friction and they work as efficient bearings, refuting the claim by Jones that non-biological molecular bearings would have high friction and not work.

A eutactic system, in which the trajectories and orientations of all atoms in the system are precisely controlled and directed to and from reaction sites at high speed, will be intrinsically more efficient than a system that relies on the random motion of molecules for transport and assembly processes. On a more primitive level, this is the principle behind catalysts, which are used to accelerate industrial chemical reactions by guiding molecules together in favorable orientations.

We can construct these sorts of structures using a molecular nano assembler system based on the INCA: Inter Nodal Connector Architecture: US Patent here:

https://www.google.com/patents/US686924 ... CB0Q6AEwAA" target="_blank

" A universally compliant and restorative internodal connector architecture system wherein a plurality of nodal members are interconnected by a spring and strut assembly in a manner that permits manual or actuated relocation of the nodal spacial definition using standard modules."


This is a collection of springs, nodes, and struts that is based on the natural curvature we see in nature, in the carbon buckyball fullerene molecule. It can be scaled up from the molecular to the macroscopic level. And, it can be built with conventional polymers, metals, and other structures, to make macroscopic collapsible structures that have the strength of solid materials.

With this we can make folding "nano to macro" origami based structures that can be used to produce such things as a torus toroid that spin, for spinning to make artificial gravity habitats in space (yes, you read right), where we have all the vacuum you can ever desire, SolidState, for all of the deposition mechanisms you could ever desire.

Here is a good article that describes some of what I am discussing:

http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/impossible.html" target="_blank

http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/errorRates.html" target="_blank

There is no physical or scientific law against constructing molecular mechanosynthesis, aka, positional chemistry devices. As time goes on and we get closer and closer to this, more and more organizations, universities, and companies will see the value. Think about it, can you imagine you and the guys in your field having the ability to position molecules directly, and do so in a repetive fashion? Even Richard Feynman himself spoke of it back in `59.

Angela Belcher at MIT has a lab where they used viruses to grow metal structures for batteries and circuits. If you can grow a complicated structure such as a battery or a computer, you can make simpler structures like knife blades, with atomic-precision, eventually.
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#55

Post by SolidState »

Hey Spyderedge,
Thanks for the "knowledge", and the hype that you clearly lack the knowledge to know the difference between. Why don't you post any peer-reviewed journal articles to back your points? Oh yeah, THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY SCIENCE!!!

Dump dinners are the same as Michelin star cooking to some... but those people don't and won't get Michelin stars, and they won't push culinary arts forward. The same happens in device physics. Go model a wavefunction.
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

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SolidState, why are you so angry?
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#57

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Bill1170 wrote:SolidState, why are you so angry?
Hey Bill,
It's not anger. Perhaps frustration, but not anger. Sometimes it is just plain painful to spend a good fifteen years working on problems with your entire heart and soul - literally becoming a peer with those who do the same and define the field- only to be told by an armchair quarterback that you don't have any clue what you're talking about, or that you don't know how to come to a conclusion. It is probably the most insulting thing that someone can do.

The other major aspect of the frustration is that the amount of misinformation in the field is so pervasive and horrifically immoral that it calls the rest of our work into question. Having someone disseminating that crap as if it is equivalent simply highlights all of the failures of science education in America, and also highlights the failures of our entire system in which any person's feelings are supposed to be deemed as equivalent to actual data. It's a sad state of affairs, it is depressing, and it is why actual scientists don't talk to people about their work - PR firms do - which furthers the downward spiral. It is also why so many of us commit suicide in the long run. Spyderedge is literally the worst type of advocate nanoscience - or science for that matter - could ask for because he embodies the genre of only reading what you want to believe and disregarding data without definitional reason. His activity embodies not searching for boundaries between fact and fiction while presenting fiction as fact. It is the antithesis of scientific morality.
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#58

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Bill1170 wrote:SolidState, why are you so angry?
There's a difference between science and pseudo-science, or what is technically possible (Maybe at some point in the very distant future), and what is realistically feasible (Even in the very distant future). If I had to guess...

Edit: He beat my response lol.
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#59

Post by SolidState »

3rdGenRigger wrote:
Bill1170 wrote:SolidState, why are you so angry?
There's a difference between science and pseudo-science, or what is technically possible (Maybe at some point in the very distant future), and what is realistically feasible (Even in the very distant future). If I had to guess...
Thank you for restoring some of my hope for humanity. I toast to you sir!
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Re: Sintered Metals & Ceramics: Possibly In Spyderco's Fut

#60

Post by 3rdGenRigger »

SolidState wrote:
3rdGenRigger wrote:
Bill1170 wrote:SolidState, why are you so angry?
There's a difference between science and pseudo-science, or what is technically possible (Maybe at some point in the very distant future), and what is realistically feasible (Even in the very distant future). If I had to guess...
Thank you for restoring some of my hope for humanity. I toast to you sir!
There are some of us lurking around who understand the scientific process. The way it is manipulated and distorted (Beyond any semblance of recognition) for political interests especially really irks me more than almost anything else I encounter.
All Glory To The Hypno-Toad

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