Toughness and its effect on grind, performance, and edge

[Surfingringo]

Sorry, but I have to step in here a bit.

We are all offering opinions. Either our own opinions or the opinions of others. We all would like to believe that our opinions are truth. From God's lips to my ears, but I say it is still all opinion. I have been involved in this game for a long time. I began purchasing testing equipment about 20 years ago because everyone had opinions and they didn't agree. Seemed crazy to me that there wasn't just some facts that I could use to answer my querries, but there just wasn't.

So I invested the money to get to test as much as I could with as much consistenty as possible. I learned how to pound steel, grind steel, heat treat steel and In the final analysis, we can test all we want, but when it comes to edges, one of the more complex entities to study, I find absolutes are questionable regardless of who they come from.

Jim, I know many knifemakers and in many conversations, I find that I know way more about steel, knives and edges then they do. Cliff has his resources and his experiences, Jim, the same. Phil is a great resouce, Ed shempp is another one. I wish I could get Dan Maragni in on our chats. I know and converse with many metalurgists all over the world. But most don't know crap about edges. That's why they send their steel to us to test.

Lance, as I said before, "the edge is a woundrous thing", in all of it's qualities, it is still a ghost. Your questions are valid, but there are many variable to the edge. Everyone here can express their opinion and substantiate it with their own testing, or their experts, or their resouces, but in the end you will have to make your own decisions. Hopefully even do some of your own testing. Get some eye power, loupes and microscopes, keep asking the questions. Find a way to measure edge angles. A goniometer is nice, but expensive.

However, through it all, I will require that everyone be RESPECTFUL to everyone else or I have to shut the whole thing down.

In a effort to find consistent testing methods, I have spent half million in testing equipment and I have a fair amount of experience as well. I don't claim I know truth! I share my opinions and learn from others as to their opinions and come to my own conclusions. I don't always agree, but I always respect. Please do the same.

sal

Thanks Sal, and yes, given that I'm trying to pay attention to how these different steels and grinds are handling the same work, it would be quite helpful to better understand what's really happening at the edge. I will get myself a decent loupe. Any suggestions on brand, model or strength for something to get started with? That question is for any of you obviously, not just Sal.

[Cliff Stamp]

...Any suggestions on brand, model or strength for something to get started with? That question is for any of you obviously, not just Sal.

If you can, a decent (not crazy expensive) digital microscope is useful, mainly because it allows you to record edges and you can even make small movies. I have an outdated version of this : http://www.celestron.com/browse-shop/mi ... microscope" target="_blank . The big problem with it is the same problem with all microscopes once you get to high magnification, the depth of focus is so small than any movement throws the picture out of focus - but that is really only an issue if you want to take pictures for reference. If you want to do that you really have to have a docking station and some way to lock everything in place - or you just take a lot of pictures until you get one in focus. Of course if money isn't an issue, then polarizers and such are nice to have on the more expensive micro-scopes, but they make docking stations even more of an issue and they start not being very portable.

There are some really nice loupe sets as well, I just like taking pictures for reference.

[bearfacedkiller]

I have a cheap Celestron as well. The LED is way too blue and as cliff stated focusing is a challenge but it works. I also have a loupe I purchased at a hobby store that is 16x which seems to be a good compromise between the easy focus of a 10x and the magnification of a 20x.

[bearfacedkiller]

These are the pics mine takes. Could be better and could be worse.

[Fancier]

I'm a fan of the Belomo triplet lenses. The come in a variety of strengths but 10x is a good compromise.

[Surfingringo]

I'm a fan of the Belomo triplet lenses. The come in a variety of strengths but 10x is a good compromise.

Read a few reviews. The belomo looks like a solid choice. Do you find the 10x sufficient to get a decent view of the edge?

[Ray Allen]

Hi,
I use a 30x loupe, but I have to say its finicky to use. If I had to do it again, I would step down to 20x or less. Having said that, it is very nice to be able to really see what is going on. Having and using a loupe is a very beneficial thing.

[Donut]

Gringo, have you used Plain Edge H1? H1 is supposed to have VERY high toughness. Though, H1 isn't very good at edge holding.

From what I read and hear, when something harsh happens to an edge. Three things can happen: the edge can chip, the edge can roll, or the edge can compress. When the edge chips, it has low toughness. When the edge rolls or compresses, that is supposed to be high toughness.

I have no idea how toughness affects how narrow of an edge a blade can hold.

[Cliff Stamp]

I'm a fan of the Belomo triplet lenses. The come in a variety of strengths but 10x is a good compromise.

Is that magnification linear, meaning if you look at a mm it has the width of a cm.

[Laethageal]

These are the pics mine takes. Could be better and could be worse.

May I ask you what's the width of the bevel and micro? I just received my usb microscope tonight and am gonna play with it tomorrow.

[PayneTrain]

Lance, as I said before, "the edge is a woundrous thing", in all of it's qualities, it is still a ghost. Your questions are valid, but there are many variable to the edge. Everyone here can express their opinion and substantiate it with their own testing, or their experts, or their resouces, but in the end you will have to make your own decisions.

Indeed, and this, Sal, is why I buy a variety of your knives. I'm as inquisitive as they come, a budding engineer, and I am so stumped by the simplest of tools. I read and ask questions, but I don't think there are enough days in my lifetime to learn all there is to know about an edge so I'll just continue to trust you to throw me examples to toy with and form my own opinions. I once heard some quote somewhere that said something along the lines of "believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear." I love reading the thoughts of you, Cliff, Jim, Phil, and every knife maker and user on the internet, but I still have to experience it for myself to believe any of it. So keep the knives comin!

But again, I love reading these topics and I hope these questions keep getting asked. Let me grab a beer, get something to eat, and maybe I'll think of a way to actually contribute.

Edit: Two chili dogs, a slice of mincemeat pie, and half a porter later, still nothing.

[Ankerson]

Sorry, but I have to step in here a bit.

We are all offering opinions. Either our own opinions or the opinions of others. We all would like to believe that our opinions are truth. From God's lips to my ears, but I say it is still all opinion. I have been involved in this game for a long time. I began purchasing testing equipment about 20 years ago because everyone had opinions and they didn't agree. Seemed crazy to me that there wasn't just some facts that I could use to answer my querries, but there just wasn't.

So I invested the money to get to test as much as I could with as much consistenty as possible. I learned how to pound steel, grind steel, heat treat steel and In the final analysis, we can test all we want, but when it comes to edges, one of the more complex entities to study, I find absolutes are questionable regardless of who they come from.

Jim, I know many knifemakers and in many conversations, I find that I know way more about steel, knives and edges then they do. Cliff has his resources and his experiences, Jim, the same. Phil is a great resouce, Ed shempp is another one. I wish I could get Dan Maragni in on our chats. I know and converse with many metalurgists all over the world. But most don't know crap about edges. That's why they send their steel to us to test.

Lance, as I said before, "the edge is a woundrous thing", in all of it's qualities, it is still a ghost. Your questions are valid, but there are many variable to the edge. Everyone here can express their opinion and substantiate it with their own testing, or their experts, or their resouces, but in the end you will have to make your own decisions. Hopefully even do some of your own testing. Get some eye power, loupes and microscopes, keep asking the questions. Find a way to measure edge angles. A goniometer is nice, but expensive.

However, through it all, I will require that everyone be RESPECTFUL to everyone else or I have to shut the whole thing down.

In a effort to find consistent testing methods, I have spent half million in testing equipment and I have a fair amount of experience as well. I don't claim I know truth! I share my opinions and learn from others as to their opinions and come to my own conclusions. I don't always agree, but I always respect. Please do the same.

sal

Hi Sal,

That's why I offered to send Lance a knife to use down there for awhile so it would be a real data point to add.

I already tested it fully so it would be good test knife for him to use for awhile, nice fixed blade that can take some rougher use adding it to the others Lance already has and is using now.

Nice real world stuff so it would be some very good feedback and if it gets dropped in the water or something else it won't be a big deal as it was/is a test knife anyway.

As far as the other stuff I could go on for days.

Jim

[Surfingringo]

Sorry, but I have to step in here a bit.

We are all offering opinions. Either our own opinions or the opinions of others. We all would like to believe that our opinions are truth. From God's lips to my ears, but I say it is still all opinion. I have been involved in this game for a long time. I began purchasing testing equipment about 20 years ago because everyone had opinions and they didn't agree. Seemed crazy to me that there wasn't just some facts that I could use to answer my querries, but there just wasn't.

So I invested the money to get to test as much as I could with as much consistenty as possible. I learned how to pound steel, grind steel, heat treat steel and In the final analysis, we can test all we want, but when it comes to edges, one of the more complex entities to study, I find absolutes are questionable regardless of who they come from.

Jim, I know many knifemakers and in many conversations, I find that I know way more about steel, knives and edges then they do. Cliff has his resources and his experiences, Jim, the same. Phil is a great resouce, Ed shempp is another one. I wish I could get Dan Maragni in on our chats. I know and converse with many metalurgists all over the world. But most don't know crap about edges. That's why they send their steel to us to test.

Lance, as I said before, "the edge is a woundrous thing", in all of it's qualities, it is still a ghost. Your questions are valid, but there are many variable to the edge. Everyone here can express their opinion and substantiate it with their own testing, or their experts, or their resouces, but in the end you will have to make your own decisions. Hopefully even do some of your own testing. Get some eye power, loupes and microscopes, keep asking the questions. Find a way to measure edge angles. A goniometer is nice, but expensive.

However, through it all, I will require that everyone be RESPECTFUL to everyone else or I have to shut the whole thing down.

In a effort to find consistent testing methods, I have spent half million in testing equipment and I have a fair amount of experience as well. I don't claim I know truth! I share my opinions and learn from others as to their opinions and come to my own conclusions. I don't always agree, but I always respect. Please do the same.

sal

Hi Sal,

That's why I offered to send Lance a knife to use down there for awhile so it would be a real data point to add.

I already tested it fully so it would be good test knife for him to use for awhile, nice fixed blade that can take some rougher use adding it to the others Lance already has and is using now.

Nice real world stuff so it would be some very good feedback and if it gets dropped in the water or something else it won't be a big deal as it was/is a test knife anyway.

As far as the other stuff I could go on for days.

Jim

Hehe...don't worry too much Jim. The fish cleaning knives never see ocean use. A dodgy customs official would be a much greater risk. :rolleyes:

[sal]

I carry a 10X in my pocket always. I have 12X and a 20X in my briefcase and I travel with a 50X. All high quality. While we have a vareity of microcopes in the lab, I like to work with loupes as I can "get all over the edge" rather than just one postion.

sal

[Surfingringo]

I have a belomo 10x on the way. :)

[Cliff Stamp]

We are all offering opinions. Either our own opinions or the opinions of others. We all would like to believe that our opinions are truth. From God's lips to my ears, but I say it is still all opinion.

Sal, I think there is a distinction between saying that something might be false and saying that everything is simply opinion.

If someone asked "Are any Spyderco knives made in the US?" well they either are or they are not and you either know the answer or you don't. But whatever the answer, it isn't simply an opinion.

Many questions on steels are simple ("Is 1095 stainless?) some are complex (Are hot work steels tougher than cold work steels of the same abrasion resistance?) rarely are they subjective unless they are very vaguely worded ("Is D2 better than A2?").

In any case, even for questions of opinion ("Should Spyderco make pink handled knives?") if a discussion is going to be productive and the goal is to learn something then it has to be a rational one.

[sal]

Hi Cliff,

I agree to a point. Spyderco's made in the USA is fairly simple. Does God exist is a bit more complicated. I've dealt with "experts" in many areas and often find when the questions get complicated, gray enters it' ugly head.

I guess I'm a skeptic. To me, it doesn't matter if the "truth" comes from the President or the Pope, I just don't trust...
It doesn't matter if we're talking nano technology or orgasms, I'll listen, but will generally come to own conclusions.

From my statistics instructor: "Statistics don't lie, but statisticians lie like **** and you can prove anything up to and including the guillotine for dandruff control".

Just my opinion.

sal

[Cliff Stamp]

Spyderco's made in the USA is fairly simple. Does God exist is a bit more complicated.

Sal, no argument that some questions are complex, no argument that there is not universal agreement on many topics and I don't accept knowledge from authority in any case (it isn't convergent). The only thing I would say is that if you want to learn you don't focus on who said a thing, you focus on the justification behind it.

[Ankerson]

Sorry, but I have to step in here a bit.

We are all offering opinions. Either our own opinions or the opinions of others. We all would like to believe that our opinions are truth. From God's lips to my ears, but I say it is still all opinion. I have been involved in this game for a long time. I began purchasing testing equipment about 20 years ago because everyone had opinions and they didn't agree. Seemed crazy to me that there wasn't just some facts that I could use to answer my querries, but there just wasn't.

So I invested the money to get to test as much as I could with as much consistenty as possible. I learned how to pound steel, grind steel, heat treat steel and In the final analysis, we can test all we want, but when it comes to edges, one of the more complex entities to study, I find absolutes are questionable regardless of who they come from.

Jim, I know many knifemakers and in many conversations, I find that I know way more about steel, knives and edges then they do. Cliff has his resources and his experiences, Jim, the same. Phil is a great resouce, Ed shempp is another one. I wish I could get Dan Maragni in on our chats. I know and converse with many metalurgists all over the world. But most don't know crap about edges. That's why they send their steel to us to test.

Lance, as I said before, "the edge is a woundrous thing", in all of it's qualities, it is still a ghost. Your questions are valid, but there are many variable to the edge. Everyone here can express their opinion and substantiate it with their own testing, or their experts, or their resouces, but in the end you will have to make your own decisions. Hopefully even do some of your own testing. Get some eye power, loupes and microscopes, keep asking the questions. Find a way to measure edge angles. A goniometer is nice, but expensive.

However, through it all, I will require that everyone be RESPECTFUL to everyone else or I have to shut the whole thing down.

In a effort to find consistent testing methods, I have spent half million in testing equipment and I have a fair amount of experience as well. I don't claim I know truth! I share my opinions and learn from others as to their opinions and come to my own conclusions. I don't always agree, but I always respect. Please do the same.

sal

Hi Sal,

That's why I offered to send Lance a knife to use down there for awhile so it would be a real data point to add.

I already tested it fully so it would be good test knife for him to use for awhile, nice fixed blade that can take some rougher use adding it to the others Lance already has and is using now.

Nice real world stuff so it would be some very good feedback and if it gets dropped in the water or something else it won't be a big deal as it was/is a test knife anyway.

As far as the other stuff I could go on for days.

Jim

Hehe...don't worry too much Jim. The fish cleaning knives never see ocean use. A dodgy customs official would be a much greater risk. :rolleyes:

Lance I don't think you would lose it. :D

Customs stuff, well haven't had any problems yet.

[paladin]

"Statistics don't lie, but statisticians lie like **** and you can prove anything up to and including the guillotine for dandruff control".

sal

Not only is that statement true-- it encroaches on the borders of natural law... :rolleyes: