qustion regarding legality of ASP tactical baton

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
sven
Member
Posts: 492
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: kingsburg, CA USA

qustion regarding legality of ASP tactical baton

Postby sven » Thu Nov 28, 2002 1:00 am

hey, maybe some of you LEO's out there can help me. i live in california and own an ASP 30 1/2" tactical baton (one of the extendable ones) and was wondering what the law said about civilian possesion. can i own but not carry not own? any info would be appreciated



<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>sven<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>



i have more pointed objects than most people have teeth :)

Sword and Shield
Member
Posts: 2050
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: USA

Postby Sword and Shield » Fri Nov 29, 2002 6:16 pm

CA doesn't like its citizens to have anything that could possibly be used as a weapon, so I'd do a little legal digging. Best bet, go down to a local police station (without the ASP!!!) and ask. Since you're just seeking info, it's harmless.

Never underestimate the impossible.

sven
Member
Posts: 492
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: kingsburg, CA USA

Postby sven » Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:44 pm

thanks. i'll probably wind up doing that. i was just wondering if there were any LEO's from cali that might happen to know that info. thanks again though.


<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>sven<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

Rex G
Member
Posts: 775
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Bellaire TX USA

Postby Rex G » Fri Nov 29, 2002 10:23 pm

There is a "Knife Law" forum on Bladeforums.com that may be a better place to get a quicker answer.

enkidu
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby enkidu » Fri Nov 29, 2002 11:19 pm

Hmmm, I'm sure it used to be illegal, but searching through the text of section 12020 (ARTICLE 2. UNLAWFUL CARRYING AND POSSESSION OF WEAPONS of CA penal law, horses mouth here: http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/index.html) I can no longer find a reference to expanding batons, just blackjacks and expanding batons with concealed blades. Perhaps the law was changed recently and I missed it...? The text surrounding the definition of nunchaku also looks new. It used to be broad enough to include all wooden and metal handled jump ropes...

Any other Californian's been paying attention? If you're really concerend, I would call/write the california attorney general's office and get it straight from them. I wouldn't trust your local police station to know any recent changes to the law.

That'd be great if I can carry a baton instead of my Maglite. Thanks for the heads up.

Edited by - enkidu on 11/29/2002 10:56:26 PM

Rex G
Member
Posts: 775
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Bellaire TX USA

Postby Rex G » Sat Nov 30, 2002 7:05 am

Guys, remember that if a law is broadly worded, it can cast a large net. Texas law does not specifically mention expandable batons, but anything a local D.A. can define as a club, will result in a prosecution. Be especially careful of the term, "includes, but is not limited to...." The mere act of wrapping friction tape around one end of a plain wooden dowel, for example, can turn a totally legal object into an illegal weapon, in Texas. Two morsels of food for thought: 1)I gave up on expandable batons long ago as useless for anything except a fist load or yawara-type of weapon, while closed. 2)Walking sticks and canes are legal virtually everywhere. My background: 19 years in big-city law enforcement. I am sure this may stir some lively debate!

GHanson
Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Texas USA

Postby GHanson » Sat Nov 30, 2002 1:21 pm

I live in Texas and asked a local police officer about carrying batons. He said the same thing Rex said: "If it's a club, it's illegal. Or else your brother-in-law had better be the D.A.!"
Too bad. They sure have a cool factor.

Rex G
Member
Posts: 775
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Bellaire TX USA

Postby Rex G » Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:14 am

My department does not approve the PR24, so that is a non-issue for me. In my opinion, as well as that of every fellow officer I have heard discuss the issue, the collapsible batons do not deliver effective blows as well as the 26-inch hardwood batons which are issued. Of course, most of us actually carry the ASP batons because of handiness. The standard baton is a true double-ended weapon, which will not collapse when used for thrusting. Not only are thrusts much more effective than other blows, IMHO, but fights tend to occur in confined areas, where there is no room to swing a baton. I would like to use a PR24, but being a non-approved weapon, I would face departmental punishment, and if a lawsuit resulted from an injury, the department would not stand behind me. (BTW, I do not work for my hometown shown here.)

enkidu
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby enkidu » Tue Dec 03, 2002 1:08 am

Called the CA Attorney General's office. After getting transferred to the Firearms Division, I talked to a nice helpful lady, Bonnie. She said that she would do some research and call me back. After 30 minutes, she called back and stated that although extensible batons were not prohibited under section 12020, they were "controlled" under section 12002 which prohibits peace officers from carrying batons unless certified. This, she said, implied that citizens could not carry batons as they cannot get certified. This seems to me to be a too broad of an interpretation, in that because an item is prohibited for use by certain people during certain times it does not mean that it is prohibited for carry by a civilian for self protection. Draw your own conclusions, but as for me, I consider the call as inconclusive.

I'm going to make an appointment with my local DA to get a proper ruling.

Rex G
Member
Posts: 775
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Bellaire TX USA

Postby Rex G » Tue Dec 03, 2002 4:42 pm

Just remember that a local DA's opinion is only effective within his jurisdiction! Texas, being so large, is a good example of a place where the region involved can make a big difference in whether something is illegal or not. I have heard similar things about California, in that legal in northern CA may be interpreted quite differently in the L.A. area. (I have relatives in CA.) Another thing: If possible, get yourself a permit to carry a concealed pistol. Even if you don't plan to carry a pistol, it marks you as a "good guy", which helps tremendously in any encounter with police. Also, in SOME states, I do not know about CA, a pistol permit also allows carrying of certain other weapons.

Edited by - Rex G on 12/3/2002 3:47:11 PM

enkidu
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby enkidu » Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:22 pm

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, my chances of getting a CCW permit in my county (San Mateo, CA) is effectively zero.

User avatar
argyll
Member
Posts: 210
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: California USA

Postby argyll » Wed Dec 04, 2002 11:53 am

The problem with trying to understand the law, especially as it pertains to weapons including knives, is that the language of the statutes don't tell the whole story. For example there is no statute in California which refers to butterfly knives by name, they have however been found by a court of appeal to fall within the statue that outlaws switchblade knives with blades longer the 2" (Penal Code 653k). The same is true with collapsible batons, they fall within the general prohibition against possession of a "billy." That said, as a practical matter your unlikely to run into trouble for having one in your home unless you've got other legal problems of a criminal nature.

As Rex G. pointed out, really any club-like item is covered by the statue. A lot of it comes down to the situation and intent, i.e. baseball bat in alley at 3:00am = bad, at park during ball game = good.

Best regards,
Argyll

For a somewhat longer discourse on the same topic check out this thread: http://martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s ... eadid=1022

Qui non est hodie cras minus aptus erit -- Ovid (He who is not prepared today will be less so tomorrow)

enkidu
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby enkidu » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:24 am

Thanks argyll. I guess that's where that comes from. Thanks for the link, those citations were depressing but great information. I really wish the law would start following a pet philosophy of mine: "The law should punish people for deeds and not for possessions."

enkidu
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby enkidu » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:29 am

Oh, and sven, After looking at the citations cited by argyll, I think we can say that the answer is almost definitely, NO, you cannot carry your expandable ASP baton.

sven
Member
Posts: 492
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: kingsburg, CA USA

Postby sven » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:35 am

yeah, i'd say that too. it's cool though. don't think i'd want to carry it even if i could. to many questions. i'm bout 6'1'' 280 and for a while had a shaved head. makes some people nervous. especially when they saw me whippin a <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> around. thanks for all the leagal research guys. i appreciate it.


sven

"trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight."proverbs 3:5-6

earthworm
Member
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby earthworm » Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:56 am

Forget the ASP,etc. Get a good cane (canemasters.com).Go to www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums & you'll find good info on classes,training tapes,etc.


Return to “Spyderco General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], dan31, FourStringFiend, Mr.Green, Ratamaque, skeeg11, Wright.88 and 37 guests