Thoughts on Ankerson's cut testing results

[Bodog]

I left the steels that had tests run both ways, coarse and refined edges. I took out the steels that were tested only one way. I also removed the steels that matched performance with both tests. I condensed the category numbers for the fine edge test results and matched them up for the coarse edge results, leaving this:

Ankerson, more or less
6000 grit
Category 1
1. M390 (60)

Category 2
2. ZDP-189 (65)
2. ELMAX (60)
2. CTS-XHP (Military) (60+)

Category 3
3. S30V (60)
3. ELMAX (58.5) Mule
3. D2 - Dozier K2

Category 4
4. CTS-B75P (Mule)

400 grit

2. ZDP -189 - 420 - Endura 4 - 65 RC
1. M390 - 400 - Benchmade 810-1401 Contego 60-62 RC
1. M390 - 380 - Military - 61 RC
2/3. ELMAX - 340 - ZT 0770CF - ? RC
2/3. ELMAX - 340 - Para 2 - ? RC
3. S30V - 300 - Military - 60 RC
2. CTS-XHP - 240 - Military - 60.5 RC
4. CTS-B75P - 240 - Mule
3. Dozier D2 - 220 - Dozier K2
3. ELMAX - 220 - Mule - 58.5 RC

Now some match kind of closely, but others are way different. They're performing better one way or the other where the test results leave conflicting information. That means that some steels will perform better with a fine edge or vice versa. I think that if it jumps or drops two steels, that proves that either it performs better or worse, whichever direction it went.

This is what the test results lead me to believe and they're based on Ankerson's results. What confuses me is that he says ALL steels perform better with a coarse edge, but his testing says otherwise. So I don't know what to make of it aside from I need to let my own testing decide and not use these results as a definite guide, which is more fun, anyway.

CTS-XHP performed significantly better with a polished edge.
ZDP-189 performed significantly better with a coarse edge.
M390 performed better with a polished edge.
B75P performed better with a coarse edge.
S30V performed better with a fine edge, but that one's a gray area because Elmax wasn't defined in Fine Edge Category 2 like it was for the coarse edge test.

[Laethageal]

Before it all starts... I wish you guys will keep it respectful!

[Ankerson]

You are dead wrong...

Like I said over on BF, let it be..... :mad:

You don't know what the **** you are talking about...

I am not in the mood for this crap...

[Cliff Stamp]

I am not in the mood for this crap...

And the rules for not insulating members are being ignored trivially again.

[Surfingringo]

You are dead wrong...

Like I said over on BF, let it be..... :mad:

You don't know what the **** you are talking about...

I am not in the mood for this crap...

Relax Jim. Take a breath. :)

Quick question. Did you list the number of cuts with the different steels in the refined edge testing? If not, then how could someone draw the conclusion that a particular steel did or did not perform better than with a coarse edge. Seems like you were only showing how steels performed relative to other steels with a refined edge. Maybe I'm missing something.

[Ankerson]

You are dead wrong...

Like I said over on BF, let it be..... :mad:

You don't know what the **** you are talking about...

I am not in the mood for this crap...

Relax Jim. Take a breath. :)

Quick question. Did you list the number of cuts with the different steels in the refined edge testing? If not, then how could someone draw the conclusion that a particular steel did or did not perform better than with a coarse edge. Seems like you were only showing how steels performed relative to other steels with a refined edge. Maybe I'm missing something.

Nope, never did, and for a very good reason.... It's a general guide.

You are correct, they can't because they don't have the numbers, that was pointed out over on BF.

[Cliff Stamp]

What confuses me is that he says .... but his testing says ....

As a couple of points, it would be helpful if there was a link to the work and direct quotes vs paraphrases. It is really easy to misinterpret what someone said when it gets paraphrased a couple of times.

I am not even sure exactly of what you are saying, it is possible for example that all steels would have increased edge retention on a slice with a more coarse finish - but some would improve more than others. In fact it would be surprising if they all improved the same relative amount as you would expect for example the increase stability of carbides in coarse edges (as the apex is thicker) to show its influence.

[Laethageal]

Jim, I must say I haven't read the hundreds of post following your list, and that's one reason why I could never criticized your list. I know you changed your test method but I don't remember own/why/when. The simple fact that I don't know much about how you performed your test (not blaming you but my lack of will to read all this thread) is enough to tell me the same quick constation I had while reading your result list could simply be coming from my lack of knowledge about how you performed the said test. Another reason why I couldn't criticize your test is as you just stated here, this is a general performance chart. I still think it's really helpful.

You said you already talked about this on BF, would you mind pointing me to the page where the conversation starts? I guess I have enough spare time now to start reading that part :)

[Surfingringo]

What confuses me is that he says .... but his testing says ....

As a couple of points, it would be helpful if there was a link to the work and direct quotes vs paraphrases. It is really easy to misinterpret what someone said when it gets paraphrased a couple of times.

I am not even sure exactly of what you are saying, it is possible for example that all steels would have increased edge retention on a slice with a more coarse finish - but some would improve more than others. In fact it would be surprising if they all improved the same relative amount as you would expect for example the increase stability of carbides in coarse edges (as the apex is thicker) to show its influence.

I haven't done the testing but that's what I would expect to find. That a coarse edge would provide more relative improvement over a refined edge in a steel like s90v than it would in something like h1.

[Ankerson]

Jim, I must say I haven't read the hundreds of post following your list, and that's one reason why I could never criticized your list. I know you changed your test method but I don't remember own/why/when. The simple fact that I don't know much about how you performed your test (not blaming you but my lack of will to read all this thread) is enough to tell me the same quick constation I had while reading your result list could simply be coming from my lack of knowledge about how you performed the said test. Another reason why I couldn't criticize your test is as you just stated here, this is a general performance chart. I still think it's really helpful.

You said you already talked about this on BF, would you mind pointing me to the page where the conversation starts? I guess I have enough spare time now to start reading that part :)

Easiest to start on the last page and work backwards, we just rehashed it all not that long ago.

[Blerv]

Absolutes are very rare in this world. I've always taken Jim's results as his results. Carefully performed (far better than I could at least) and a general rule of thumb rather than leap-of-faith "bet the farm" kind of information.

As I understand almost every steel will perform (if averaged) better with a coarse edge than a polished edge. At least for cutting with the grain materials that don't lead to excessive degradation by chipping. Start adding variables or not taking account scatter and you can have a lucky or unlucky run which throws the "law" for a loop.

If you don't get or don't believe his results I would recommend coming up with your own reasoned and consistent methodology. Sharpen dozens of knives to exact specs and cut until your hand throbs for weeks. Then you can have a list of your own and perhaps another perspective on the whole thing. IMHO, it's easier and cheaper to pinpoint flaws than to create new information.

Edit: Did you really just cut/paste your post from Bladeforums here? Looks like they sufficiently answered your question... :confused:

[Ankerson]

Absolutes are very rare in this world. I've always taken Jim's results as his results. Carefully performed (far better than I could at least) and a general rule of thumb rather than leap-of-faith "bet the farm" kind of information.

As I understand almost every steel will perform (if averaged) better with a coarse edge than a polished edge. At least for cutting with the grain materials that don't lead to excessive degradation by chipping. Start adding variables or not taking account scatter and you can have a lucky or unlucky run which throws the "law" for a loop.

If you don't get or don't believe his results I would recommend coming up with your own reasoned and consistent methodology. Sharpen dozens of knives to exact specs and cut until your hand throbs for weeks. Then you can have a list of your own and perhaps another perspective on the whole thing. IMHO, it's easier and cheaper to pinpoint flaws than to create new information.

By the way, that last part wasn't a personal attack.

Yeah like right now I am in the middle of cutting cardboard with a 10V blade, for the past 4 hours and did rope yesterday for 8 hours plus and the day before that it was another custom in 4V....

So I might be just a bit on edge today.... Just a little....

[Cujobob]

Agreed, there will always be ways to improve the testing, but this level of testing at least is more useful than opinions based on casual use with zero controls in place.

[Ankerson]

Thanks everyone who jumped in, I am just not up to it today, right in the middle of a lot right now with a ton on my plate testing wise.

So I am not in the best of moods so I am sorry about that.

[Bodog]

Did you really just cut/paste your post from Bladeforums here? Looks like they sufficiently answered your question... :confused:

Yes, and I stated as much. I did that because it can very quickly get hostile over there. Over here calmer heads generally prevail, but a ton of knife makers are over there, so I thought it would be a relevant and interesting discussion in both places.

[Bodog]

Yeah like right now I am in the middle of cutting cardboard with a 10V blade, for the past 4 hours and did rope yesterday for 8 hours plus and the day before that it was another custom in 4V....

So I might be just a bit on edge today.... Just a little....

I hope you don't think I don't appreciate the work you put into this, I just see anomalies with the results and knew the best way to illustrate that was to copy and paste like I did there and here. Some people say that coarse edges are better, some say refined edges are better. Some say high carbide, some say low. I did this to illustrate that the tests showed something, exactly what, I don't know, but with the jumping around in performance, you can't say there's an absolute with any of it. It's a guide for edge retention with mostly high alloy steels, and that, sir, takes a lot of work. It's appreciated and I wasn't trying to say anything else.

[jabba359]

*wrong thread!*

[Bodog]

And ankerson, regardless of what you think I was saying by posting that, I refer to your test results quite often because it's valuable knowledge.

Why a polished edge group 1 knife would drop below a group 2 knife when coarse edges were applied, that would mean that either the groupings were kind of arbitrary or that certain steels perform better than others with a polished edge. At least that's how I see it. If there's another explanation, I'm all ears.

[Blerv]

Why a polished edge group 1 knife would drop below a group 2 knife when coarse edges were applied, that would mean that either the groupings were kind of arbitrary or that certain steels perform better than others with a polished edge. At least that's how I see it. If there's another explanation, I'm all ears.

Or that in one particular situation a "group 1 steel" just got it's butt kicked by a "group 2 steel". Maybe the specific cross-section of the M390 blade suffered abnormal fracturing. Maybe Jim's hand was hurting so his pressure with the M390 wasn't as perfect as it could have been which amplified the damage. Maybe ZDP-189's higher hardness paid off with an ideal arrangement of large coarse sharpened chromium carbides that didn't tear out as readily as they normally do.

You have to consider that materials like ZDP-189 and M390 absolute beasts in their own right. MASSIVE amounts of carbon and carbide elements and produced by companies who are clearly skilled at what they do. It's like looking at two drugged-up cage fighters or two nitro-swilling top fuel dragsters. Why did one win and one lose? Because sometimes it just comes down to a coin toss.

[Evil D]

Yeah like right now I am in the middle of cutting cardboard with a 10V blade, for the past 4 hours and did rope yesterday for 8 hours plus and the day before that it was another custom in 4V....

So I might be just a bit on edge today.... Just a little....

This is the most literal sentence I've ever read on this forum.