Edge retention as influenced by apex finishing grit

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Mallus
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Re: Edge retention as influenced by apex finishing grit

#61

Post by Mallus »

Cliff Stamp wrote: Of course if you have lots of money just use diamonds as a lapping abrasive or CBN if you want to be fancy as cubic boron nitride is way cooler to say than diamond if anyone asks what you are doing.
Thanks for the pics! Don't know about lot of money, but at the rate I'm lapping other stones, I think my diamond plates will last a long time until they are done. I did manage to wear a coarse plate down somewhat by lapping an Ultra fine Spyderco benchstone (which wasn't too flat), but it's still useable.

You are right about the coolness of cubic boron nitride, which is why I've decided to call my ole DMTs from now on Nickel bound mono crystalline diamond steel layered composite plates, and refuse to use the out-spelled, long version of CBN - until I get some myself, that is.
JD Spydo
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Re: Edge retention as influenced by apex finishing grit

#62

Post by JD Spydo »

Cliff, First of all I want to thank you for sharing this extremely valuable information with us. This is so interesting how different abrasives have different types of results with a broad spectrum and wide variety of different types of blade steels.

I have a question in regards to putting a finish or maybe refining a finish on the apex of an already well sharpened blade>> it could be any premium blade steel but I'll start with one of my most dependable steels I use a lot in my everyday cutting chores and that be VG-10. I'll start there because it's one I work with a lot and sharpen a lot.

My question has to do with "steeling" the blade with a high quality sharpening steel like ones made by F. Dick out of Germany or Dexter/Russell which is a make of sharpening steel you see a lot here in the USA. I hope I'm not veering to far off course of what you intended to talk about on this thread but I'm really curious as to what types of sharpening steels can do to enhance a final finish on a well sharpened blade.

I've heard that smooth sharpening steels like my F. Dick Poliron actually "burnishes" the steel rather than abrading it>> it not only is supposed to line up the edge uniformly but by burnishing the steel it actually has a "smoothing process from what a retired meat cutter told me a few years back.

Also I have a finely grooved sharpening steel also made by F. Dick which I was told has a very slight abrading effect on the very edge itself and can also work to smoothing out the very apex of the edge. Now if I'm barking up the wrong tree please tell me where I'm going wrong and why>> also what tasks do you think premium sharpening steels are useful for?

Again it's super good thread you've put together and I've personally learned a lot>> however it's caused me a dilema :o I now have about 20 different sharpening stones I've put on my "want list" :D
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Re: Edge retention as influenced by apex finishing grit

#63

Post by Cliff Stamp »

JD Spydo wrote: I've heard that smooth sharpening steels like my F. Dick Poliron actually "burnishes" the steel rather than abrading it>> it not only is supposed to line up the edge uniformly but by burnishing the steel it actually has a "smoothing process from what a retired meat cutter told me a few years back.

Also I have a finely grooved sharpening steel also made by F. Dick which I was told has a very slight abrading effect on the very edge itself and can also work to smoothing out the very apex of the edge. Now if I'm barking up the wrong tree please tell me where I'm going wrong and why>> also what tasks do you think premium sharpening steels are useful for?
First, this is a really interesting question and it has a very large scope. I will try to find some kind of balance between over simplication and too much complexity of detail.

If you do a quick scan on steeling you can find extreme polar opposites. John Juranich for example has claimed in regards to steeling " This is an edge no hone will ever equal." But if you ask someone with a strong Japanese influence on cutlery they are very likely to regard steels as being almost a destructive tool and will openly argue that they should never be used on fine cutlery. As with many conflicts, the reason there is a disagreement is that the parties are talking about different scenarios.

John was talking about western knives, especially kitchen and butcher style knives which are steels similar to 5Cr15 and 55/57 HRC and which have been sharpened on a fairly coarse stone. Those blades are made out of very tough steels which are very ductile and not prone to carbide tear out. The coarse stones used left a very coarse edge and a steel could smooth that out because of the tough and ductile blades. Hence why he was such a strong advocate of steels and sold a number of them including jig based steels like the Mousetrap.

However Japanese knives tend to use much harder steels with a much higher carbide volume and they finish typically on extremely fine stones. People using Japanese waterstones can even consider something like a 4k stone semi-coarse but that is extremely fine compared to something like Fine India stone which is commonly used on the knives Juranich is talking about. Thus on those knives with the very high polish from the stone then using a steel won't improve the finish and because the steel doesn't have a very high ductility then it is likely that steeling could cause problems with fracture on the edge.

In general then, if the knife blades you use are simpler (low alloy), softer (< 60 HRC), you generally use coarse-ish stones, then you are likely to see benefits from steeling. As you move toward higher hardness blades, higher alloy and you use very fine stones, it is likely that you won't see that same kind of performance increase and you could even see damage.

If using a steel does produce the kind of edge you like and you favor it over simply sharpening the blade then an entire world of sharpening tools will open up to you because there are as many types of steels as there are sharpening stones, possible even more. F. Dick alone makes a huge variety of multi-cut steels which are designed to allow steeling to continue to work even when the cutting is abrasive and wears on a knife edge as typical smooth steels just deal mainly with deformation.
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JNewell
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Re: Edge retention as influenced by apex finishing grit

#64

Post by JNewell »

To expand or possibly confuse :o things a little, there are steels and there are steels. The one that came with the knives my wife and I were given as wedding presents 8 million years ago has a sort of splined surface and doesn't appear to be very hard (and hasn't been used in decades). On the other hand, I have a "steel" (sold as a burnisher) that is supposed to be beneficial for very fine edges on woodworking tools - I don't use that one much, either, but it's very different from the knife set one: it's extremely hard and has a highly polished surface (as you'd expect, given its intended use). All FWIW, which may not be much. :)
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Re: Edge retention as influenced by apex finishing grit

#65

Post by Cliff Stamp »

JNewell wrote:The one that came with the knives my wife and I were given as wedding presents 8 million years ago has a sort of splined surface and doesn't appear to be very hard (and hasn't been used in decades). On the other hand, I have a "steel" (sold as a burnisher) that is supposed to be beneficial for very fine edges on woodworking tools
There are two really different types, the butchers steels which are just round files and the "slicks" which are polished and very smooth.

The butchers steels come in various grades (just like files) and they will easily cut into the edge on a knife, especially if the knife is on the softer side. They are really popular around here because you never really need a stone if you use them as they abrade the knife readily. They are no different essentially than using a flat file, just more aggressive due to the very high contact pressure. They can produce a very high slicing sharpness. If used light they can polish an edge as well.

The very smooth ones won't cut the knife, they do a little adhesive wear, but mainly work by deformation. They produce a very high push cutting sharpness. They don't work very well if the knife was used on abrasive cutting, mainly when the knife blunts through slow deformation.

You can get them in multi-cut patterns as well. You can then start with the smooth side and work up to the heavy cut side as the edge wears. Or just use one or the other depending if you want high slicing ability or strong push cutting ability. They can get expensive though, the high end steels can cost more than even decent sharpening systems.
JD Spydo
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Re: Edge retention as influenced by apex finishing grit

#66

Post by JD Spydo »

Cliff Stamp wrote:
JD Spydo wrote:
First, this is a really interesting question and it has a very large scope. I will try to find some kind of balance between over simplication and too much complexity of detail.

If you do a quick scan on steeling you can find extreme polar opposites. John Juranich for example has claimed in regards to steeling " This is an edge no hone will ever equal." But if you ask someone with a strong Japanese influence on cutlery they are very likely to regard steels as being almost a destructive tool and will openly argue that they should never be used on fine cutlery. As with many conflicts, the reason there is a disagreement is that the parties are talking about different scenarios.

John was talking about western knives, especially kitchen and butcher style knives which are steels similar to 5Cr15 and 55/57 HRC and which have been sharpened on a fairly coarse stone. Those blades are made out of very tough steels which are very ductile and not prone to carbide tear out. The coarse stones used left a very coarse edge and a steel could smooth that out because of the tough and ductile blades. Hence why he was such a strong advocate of steels and sold a number of them including jig based steels like the Mousetrap.
Thanks for the detailed answer Cliff>>I find it extremely interesting that you bring up John Juranitch because it was back around 1998 I got one of the kits that John Juranitch markets through his company i.e. Razor Edge Systems out of Ely, Minnesota. I got the "Ultimate Kit" from them along with the book entitled "The Razor Edge Book Of Sharpening" and I do credit John Juranitch with the sharpening skills I've learned up till now. I still have that Ultimate Kit but don't use it a lot like I used to. But the principles he laid out in his great book would benefit anyone who wants to learn proper sharpening.

I do agree with you that Juranitch and many other sectors of the knife industry differ somewhat and the distinction you made between his methods and the methods that Japanese bladesmiths have aquired are indeed 2 completely worlds all together as you pointed out.

I got a big bunch of the F. Dick steels when I did some work for a restaurant supply company and I got them at almost cost. I do a lot of experimenting with those sharpening steels and it's interesting some of the mixed results I've gotten. Especially off of one called the F. Dick "Multicut" steel. But I do have a ton of respect for John Juranitch because I believe anyone could profit from reading his brilliant book on Sharpening.

I know where you're coming from talking about the Japanese methods of sharpening. I have a DVD video given to me about 7 years ago that was done by a Japanese Chef who is also considered a cutlery expert over in Japan. And their sharpening methods are completely different than anything I've encountered here in the USA. He mainly deals with culinary knives and some chisel edged chefs knives. I'll get the name of the video this weekend when I go to my storage unit.

I also find many pieces of sharpening equipment that Razor Edge Systems sells are truly good sharpening tools. Even though he mainly seems to target market the meat cutting industry for the most part. Great Thread!
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Re: Edge retention as influenced by apex finishing grit

#67

Post by Cliff Stamp »

Nice find, I always wanted one of those Multi-Cut steels.

I keep meaning to pick up a set of John's stones as well mainly because of the comments he has made about them and I am curious how different they are from the standard abrasives, especially as he is adamant they are to be used dry.
JD Spydo
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Re: Edge retention as influenced by apex finishing grit

#68

Post by JD Spydo »

Cliff Stamp wrote:Nice find, I always wanted one of those Multi-Cut steels.

I keep meaning to pick up a set of John's stones as well mainly because of the comments he has made about them and I am curious how different they are from the standard abrasives, especially as he is adamant they are to be used dry.
Yeah I've never ever seen a sharpening steel that looks or operates anything like that F. Dick Multicut steel. There are so many options on how to go about using it that you could spend an entire day coming up with different angles and applications. It's one of the steels I own that I'll never get rid of. Also I tend to like the overall high quality of all the F. Dick products I've ever owned>> their culinary knives are pretty decent as well.

It's sort of interesting about the sharpening stones that Razor Edge Systems ( John Juranitch) markets>> unless there have been recent changes all I've ever seen him offer is "coarse" and very fine. And I believe that they are made with some grade of Aluminum Oxide if my memory serves me well. I do love his sharpening guides that you can clamp on to a blade and it really gives you a lot of help using benchstones. His books and videos are great too.

John's method of steeling the apex are completely different that what I've gotten from guys in the meat cutting industry. He mainly uses smooth steels which came with my kit.
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Re: Edge retention as influenced by apex finishing grit

#69

Post by Cliff Stamp »

JD Spydo wrote:
It's sort of interesting about the sharpening stones that Razor Edge Systems ( John Juranitch) markets>> unless there have been recent changes all I've ever seen him offer is "coarse" and very fine.
Yes, he has a very simple sharpening approach :

-apply the relief grind with the coarse
-finish with the fine

It is very similar to Murray Carter's approach who just grinds down the primary itself vs applying a relief bevel. My main interest is that John is very adamant that the stones be used dry which makes me curious how they are made to prevent loading. Based on what I have seen, in order to prevent loading they would have to be made from either a very friable abrasive and/or a very weak/brittle binder. I have both aluminum oxide and silicon carbide stones which can be used dry and you can just spray them with water to blow out the loose grit/steel. However I always use them wet anyway just to control the dust formation as I don't want the air (and my lungs) filled with grit and steel dust.
John's method of steeling the apex are completely different that what I've gotten from guys in the meat cutting industry. He mainly uses smooth steels which came with my kit.
Yeah, butchers and fisherman locally use much more aggressive steels which recut the edges. This is such a strong effect that they can put a lot of wear on a knife in just a year as they can be doing 100+ very strong passes on a coarse ground steel every day. I think John has an argument that they could do very well if they switched to a smooth steel and started with a sharper edge - but getting people to change habits is very difficult.
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Re: Edge retention as influenced by apex finishing grit

#70

Post by JD Spydo »

Cliff Stamp wrote:
JD Spydo wrote:
My main interest is that John is very adamant that the stones be used dry which makes me curious how they are made to prevent loading. Based on what I have seen, in order to prevent loading they would have to be made from either a very friable abrasive and/or a very weak/brittle binder. I have both aluminum oxide and silicon carbide stones which can be used dry and you can just spray them with water to blow out the loose grit/steel. However I always use them wet anyway just to control the dust formation as I don't want the air (and my lungs) filled with grit and steel dust.
Now that you've mentioned it I do believe that John Juranitch's aluminum oxide stones are the only conventional aluminum Oxide stones I'm aware of that don't load up with impregnated metal filings. I too would like to know what they're secret is>> because that is the only negative thing I complain about with Spyderco's great ceramic sharpening stones is that they do load up quickly. I clean all my Spyderco stones after every two blades I sharpen>> because I find if I don't the uniformity of the bite varies too much for my liking. But they are relatively easy to clean so I guess I'll live with it.

I had a good friend of mine tell me that he dished out one of Razor Edge System's stone ( I believe he said it was the coarse one) and he had only had it for about 3 months. He said that the company gave him a new one, no questions asked but I thought that was strange. I didn't know aluminum oxide stones were subject to dishing out that bad.

Getting back to the finish of the "APEX">> I'm wondering Cliff what your ideas are comparing burnishing to polishing to attain the final edge? The reason I ask is I'm wondering if those slurry stones that JapanWoodWorker sells might be worth investing in? They also have a diamond dust that I've heard good and bad about. Also it seems to me like the older, well known Novaculite ( ARkansas Stones) seem to have more polishing properties that most other I've worked with>> particularly the white opaque and the super smooth "blue-Black" Arkansas Stones. Again great thread, very informative.
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Re: Edge retention as influenced by apex finishing grit

#71

Post by Robert Ptacek »

I worked in a meat packing plant for 20 years and we always used smooth butcher steels.
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Re: Edge retention as influenced by apex finishing grit

#72

Post by Cliff Stamp »

JD Spydo wrote: I didn't know aluminum oxide stones were subject to dishing out that bad.
There are many grades of aluminum oxide, some will produce very soft stones (white aluminum oxide), some are used in very hard stones (brown aluminum oxide) and some are moderate (pink and ruby aluminum oxide). I have all of them, the white ones are in fast so easy to gouge and dish that they are used for that specifically. If you have an odd shape to polish the stone wears so fast against it they take its shape. They will often even be sold under names like "Super Soft" . They are extremely fast cutting, cool grinding and low loading. However for knives, unless you sharpen with very low force or have huge contact areas, you are likely better off with other forms of that abrasive.
I'm wondering Cliff what your ideas are comparing burnishing to polishing to attain the final edge?
I can't think on any argument to use burnishing as an edge finish unless you are trying to do something like make a hook on a cabinet scraper.

I have a number of Arkansas stones, including one hard/black that I know is more than 50 years old. I found it being used as a door stop, the owner thought it was just an old dirty rock, which I guess it is really.
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Re: Edge retention as influenced by apex finishing grit

#73

Post by Cliff Stamp »

Here is an update and summary : http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/articles/grits.html" target="_blank .
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