Soap and water cleaning

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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hunterseeker5
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Soap and water cleaning

#1

Post by hunterseeker5 »

So I've never been a fan of the "no disassembly allowed, soap and water cleaning" strategy advocated by spyderco/this forum. But I've had my Para2 for many years now without taking it apart to service so when today it got some grit in the action I figured what the heck, I'll try this soap and water cleanup without disassembly, and then just shake, blot, and blow it dry as best I can before leaving it in a nice warm dry place to finish drying off. The results left me less than entirely amused:

Image

Image

Somewhat ironic I suppose that the blade is made of a significantly more corrosion resistant material than the knife itself. And before someone asks, yes I'm sure there was not a spot of corrosion on it before, it was pristine and protected by CLP.

*edit*
Used the quote tags rather than img tags; corrected.

*edit*
Updated with resolution:
So I contacted Charlynn, and she indicated that this might not be the expected performance of the knife, but that the stop pin could not be sent out I'd have to return the knife. Alrighty, no biggie, sent it in. She asked if I'd mind if they upgraded the screws to the new black screws, which I didn't mind, so they did that. There was originally a nominal fee, which I believe was 5$ or something, but they waived it because Charlynn discovered a lockup issue. Apparently, under a spine whack, the lock would disengage. However, she said she couldn't address that, and it had to be sent elsewhere in Spyderco for tuning. A few weeks later I get the knife back and the lockup issue is, apparently, fixed but the stop pin is the same and still has corrosion on it.

Couple emails sent to Charlynn, who was out of the office for a few weeks there, and eventually I get a hold of her. She is apologetic, and sends me a return label. Knife is sent back, lather, rinse, repeat.
Last edited by hunterseeker5 on Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Anachro12
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#2

Post by Anachro12 »

Hey did you know you should wash your car engine with salt water? And you should boil your batteries to make them last longer. (that's sarcasm by the way) steel is steel you won't catch me doing that even with my m390 para2. If I rinse the knife I am going to hit it with some tough glide at the hinge. Just not a fan of no treatment after water immersion with a cleaner.
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#3

Post by Brock O Lee »

I've seen some rust on the stop pin of my 20cp PM2 before. I found it disappointing that the stop pin was made of a stainless that could rust while the rest of the knife was fine. Disassembled, removed rust with polish and very fine sandpaper, applied Tuff Glide, and it has been ok ever since. I often just rinse and forget. My M390 PM2 never showed any rust.

On my non stainless knives I try not to get the pivot wet, or blow them out if they do. When I wash them properly I hit the pivot with WD40 to disperse the water before oiling.
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The Mastiff
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#4

Post by The Mastiff »

I wouldn't try telling someone experienced what to or not do. I will give that kind of advice to someone new or just getting a knife or new to the hobby. New guys often get told lots of things when they are just beginning like they need to adjust their pivots to make their knives flip open and things like that. Not really needed and if it's done it should only be done by people who are competent or at least know it's on them if they bugger their new knife up trying to customize it to their own like and forget to loosen up the thread locker.


I've carried knives for forty something years and never had to take one apart and I've never had one come out like that. Heck, I've got some old knives nearly a hundred years old that don't have rust inside them. I use paper towels to wipe down surfaces I can reach to dry them before I silicone/grease them, or put a dry lube on them depending on what kind of knife. You had something, maybe metal particles that began oxidizing and that started the blade.I always try to tell people to remove everything that can corrode or cause corrosion before oiling when I give them the wash, dry and oil advice. Good thing you caught it early. Even the most stainless of steels will corrode if left in contact with something that does corrode. Carbon steel dust left on tooling should be passivated before beginning working on stainless. Some shops will use different tooling just for stainless because of that. Even the 303 type stainless used on sinks can rust from leaving a wet and rusting SOS pad on it and that stuff can go years without rusting normally. Just a bit of cleaning is enough.
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hunterseeker5
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#5

Post by hunterseeker5 »

Well it is what it is. Its a bummer to hear though that this isn't just a fluke, other people have had similar problems. The 20cp run was quite a while ago, so I wonder if the issue has been addressed since. It is certainly beyond silly to make cutlery with component parts and a blade all significantly more stainless than the stop pin.

The "fix," if you can call it that, was lapping compound on a paper towel and a drill. Tuf Glide should hopefully protect it. I do wonder though if contacting spyderco CS would have a positive result. I know they often resist sending out parts but.....
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The Mastiff
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#6

Post by The Mastiff »

The "fix," if you can call it that, was lapping compound on a paper towel and a drill. Tuf Glide should hopefully protect it. I do wonder though if contacting spyderco CS would have a positive result. I know they often resist sending out parts but.....
You sure lost me on that. What could they send you that will change you having caused rust in your knife?

Joe
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#7

Post by gijoe945 »

Iv'e collected knives since 1958 and only once during a fishing trip, I let my knife rust. Didn't hurt only cosmetically and polished up with just a small pit. Use naval jelly to stop rust in its tracks, then treat with Flitz.
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#8

Post by MadRookie »

I might be way off, but I believe that to clean a knife properly it cannot be done without taking it apart.

I do mine twice annually or more frequent depending on use.

After washing each part & drying thoroughly with paper towel, I coat it with fluid film & wipe clean with paper towel - then lube with nano oil 85weight & reassemble.

Read here: http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f35/ ... 0-a-38007/" target="_blank

:)
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#9

Post by zhyla »

I really don't understand his post. OP let water sit on his knife blade and is concerned by the resulting rust? Unless it's H1 steel that's the expected result.

I don't remember anyone recommending soap and water. Certainly nobody advocated soap and water following by not oiling the poor thing. It would be lame to ask Spyderco to replace anything but you can always ask.

I don't have a para2 so don't know the design that well. Is that just surface rust on a non-bearing surface? Doesn't sound too bad to me.
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#10

Post by Evil D »

So you put it away wet and it rusted. This has nothing to do with washing without taking it apart, as the exact same thing would happen if you took it apart and put it back together wet and left it wet..it would rust. Gotta blow the water out and dry them out or they'll rust.
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#11

Post by Mallus »

I've yet to rust (visibly) any of my folders despite washing them under running water with soap. I've even washed my Super Blue Caly3 the same way. What I do is shake the knife rather forcefully with intermittent opening and closing to get out any what that comes out of the pivot willingly. Then I've put a little Ballistol (or whatever I happen to have) on the pivot and work it a few times. I don't know whether the Ballistol pushes the remaining moisture out of the pivot (as I hope) or not, but I haven't detected any rust form so far. Of course since I haven't taken the knives apart, I can't guarantee that there'd be no rust hiding somewhere, but as I haven't felt any grittiness come from the result of the procedure, I'm not too concerned.

Regarding washing and drying without oiling the pivot, I've also done that, If the need has risen - say when I've eaten an apple at work and had apple juice run into the pivot. I haven't seen any rust this way either, but these have been stainless blades. In these case I've dried the knife / pivot as best as I could and let let it hang out to dry more in a knife magnet or just open on my desk.
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#12

Post by hunterseeker5 »

The Mastiff wrote:
The "fix," if you can call it that, was lapping compound on a paper towel and a drill. Tuf Glide should hopefully protect it. I do wonder though if contacting spyderco CS would have a positive result. I know they often resist sending out parts but.....
You sure lost me on that. What could they send you that will change you having caused rust in your knife?

Joe

Was a stainless steel stop pin too obvious an answer? Honestly I just asked them if it is the expected behavior of the stop pin to rust far more readily than the rest of the knife.
MadRookie wrote:I might be way off, but I believe that to clean a knife properly it cannot be done without taking it apart.
I'm actually with you on this one, but at least the last time I was really active on this forum it was spyderco policy to void warranty on disassembly, and to advocate assembled soap and water cleaning. Mastiff above I believe would be an excellent case in point.
zhyla wrote:I really don't understand his post. OP let water sit on his knife blade and is concerned by the resulting rust? Unless it's H1 steel that's the expected result.

I don't remember anyone recommending soap and water. Certainly nobody advocated soap and water following by not oiling the poor thing. It would be lame to ask Spyderco to replace anything but you can always ask.

I don't have a para2 so don't know the design that well. Is that just surface rust on a non-bearing surface? Doesn't sound too bad to me.
A couple things.
1) You'll note above Mastiff advocated EXACTLY this.

2) Unless you disassemble your knife to dry it, which was prohibited for the aforementioned reasons, water will remain in the crevices. As a result water will inevitably "sit" inside the knife. Blowing almost all of it out, and then drying it prior to applying a CLP, will prevent a grease from actually sealing in pockets of water leaving them unable to evaporate. Again I'll refer you to spyderco's instructional on the subject:
"Clean both the well of the lock and inside the handle often using a toothpick, hot water and mild soap or detergent. Rinse thoroughly, dry the knife inside and out and lubricate all steel components with oil or silicone. A couple drops of lubricant at the locking and pivot points will ensure smooth action." (ref. http://www.spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/index.php?item=5" target="_blank)

3) I'm not sure the word "lame" is particularly necessary, but I would ask you what the merits of paying for the extra cost, in edge performance, grinding, heat treating, etc would be of having a premium stainless steel blade when other parts of the knife are not made to a similar or higher level of stainlessness? As a more extreme, and obvious, example: would you think it makes sense to sell an H1 knife with carbon steel pins? Obviously not. This is the same sort of thing. I have nothing against carbon steel knives, they offer a variety of performance advantages, but I treat them rather differently than stainless. Likewise when I go for a stainless steel knife, and all that entails, I typically expect the ENTIRE knife to be stainless. It seems probable to me that Spyderco did as well, because the rear spacer pin, liners, screws, clip, tube, bushing, detent, and of course blade were all totally unaffected by a brief wash and dry with soapy water. If it had been their intent to "cheap out," all or at least most of the rest of those components would have also been affected. Given that this was the only one, my first thought was a production issue which was likely a supplier's fault. After all why make the blade and the entire rest of the knife stainless if you were going to make a stop pin that rusts at a sneeze?

4) That is the stop pin, so yes I would consider it a load bearing surface.
Evil D wrote:So you put it away wet and it rusted. This has nothing to do with washing without taking it apart, as the exact same thing would happen if you took it apart and put it back together wet and left it wet..it would rust. Gotta blow the water out and dry them out or they'll rust.


I would ask you to, in future, please read my post or at the very least the OP, prior to commenting as I stated pretty clearly that I DID blow the water out.
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#13

Post by zhyla »

Sigh, "stainless steel" does not mean it won't ever rust. The stop pin is stainless steel. It just happened to not be magical stainless steel like H1. To put this on anyone but you is nuts. Look on the bright side: now you know and you won't have that problem in the future.

You could blow out the water with WD-40 prior to lubing. Won't smell good. A shop vac would work better -- this is how you get water out of electronics devices.
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#14

Post by Liquid Cobra »

hunterseeker5 wrote:and then just shake, blot, and blow it dry as best I can before leaving it in a nice warm dry place to finish drying off.
You left it to finish drying off. Which means it was still wet. Ensure that it is dry before moving on and you will be fine next time.
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hunterseeker5
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#15

Post by hunterseeker5 »

zhyla wrote:Sigh, "stainless steel" does not mean it won't ever rust. The stop pin is stainless steel. It just happened to not be magical stainless steel like H1. To put this on anyone but you is nuts. Look on the bright side: now you know and you won't have that problem in the future.

You could blow out the water with WD-40 prior to lubing. Won't smell good. A shop vac would work better -- this is how you get water out of electronics devices.
No, of course not, and even H1 can rust. Could you please explain to me though the utility of having a stop pin with significantly lower corrosion resistance than every single other part on the rest of the knife?


And good idea, next time I'll use a shop vac which blows at maybe ~10psi as opposed to 100PSI out of my air compressor. Good thinking. If only you were there when I blew the knife out before, I'd know that slower moving lower pressure air would have solved all my problems. /sarcasm


And now, having done a little research, I've discovered I'm far from alone with the issue. There are multiple cases of stop pins rusting, even some which are kept oiled regularly. Just a quick sampling:
http://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtop ... +normal%3F" target="_blank
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... ary-2-Rust" target="_blank
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... ust-issues!-" target="_blank!
http://edcforums.com/threads/rust-on-my ... pin.84040/" target="_blank


So I can assume that you believe it is totally normal, logical, and rational to make a knife with some parts significantly less corrosion resistant than the blade. If that is your expected performance from the knife, I guess that is your prerogative, but I guess over the years I've come to the conclusion that Spyderco broadly sells high quality knives with fairly consistent and well thought out designs, so to me at least this was a surprise.
Liquid Cobra wrote:
hunterseeker5 wrote:and then just shake, blot, and blow it dry as best I can before leaving it in a nice warm dry place to finish drying off.
You left it to finish drying off. Which means it was still wet. Ensure that it is dry before moving on and you will be fine next time.
Again, please read my previous posts. A knife can not be fully dried without disassembly, despite air compressors and such, so yes while it was not fully dried it was as dry as could possibly have been expected given Spyderco's own recommendations in their manual. Additionally, if you read the links above, you'll see this has apparently been an issue for users who even regularly oiled their stop pins. So I guess though, to you, this is the expected performance of a knife? Having some non-stainless parts on a stainless knife? (and before you say it was stainless, just less stainless, D2 is broadly considered teetering on the edge of stainless/non-stainless, and it would not have corroded let alone anywhere near this badly under these circumstances. Food for thought.)
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#16

Post by Liquid Cobra »

I dry my knives out with a blow dryer. The combination of air being blown into it along with the heat dries out nicely, I've never had a problem.Just take the time and your knife will be fine.

Second, H-1 is incapable of rusting.

Perhaps instead of sticking to your guns just learn from the experience and move on? I'm just trying to help. I don't think Spyderco is going to start making their hardware out of the same stuff as their blades.
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bearfacedkiller
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#17

Post by bearfacedkiller »

I understand not being able to get a knife completely dry inside the liners, especially with nested liners, but for your stop pin which is exposed and easily accessible to rust like that I have a hard time believing that it was left as clean and dry as possible.

The pins and liners are not made out of the same metal as the blade for a number of obvious reasons.

S30v is not as stainless as the steel that the liners and pins are made of in my opinion and therefore I believe your statement that the rest of the knife is less stainless is untrue.

Linking some threads from people who have had similar problems does not prove a lot to me. You can validate any opinion with some quick google searching which is one of the major diservices the Internet provides us.

I wonder if Spyderco got a bad batch of stop pins. That is the only other thing I could think of.

What climate do you live in? That could be a variable that is being left out. I have never had a problem but I live in a semi arid climates.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#18

Post by GoldenSpydie »

You left it wet. It rusted. What did you expect? I mean seriously, that's what happens.

Just because you read something on the internet doesn't mean that you should do it, nor that what you read provided exact instructions for the process. ;)

Or, just do what I do: take the knife apart and clean it that way. Unless you're planning on having a warranty issue, the warranty doesn't matter. And most warranty issues are immediately visible upon taking the knife out of the box--regular wear from use/abuse doesn't count.

BTW, the Salt line is what you need if you can't keep rust from forming because of your technique and/or environment. The hardware is rust proof, as is the blade. Maybe that would be a good option for you? :)
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#19

Post by bearfacedkiller »

What is the point of this thread? Are we looking for some sort of outcomes? Are we just informing the folks at Spyderco of a potential problem or are we just venting a complaint or are we seeking some sort of resolution? You did say that you resolved the issue yourself, correct?
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?
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Re: Soap and water cleaning

#20

Post by hunterseeker5 »

Liquid Cobra wrote:I dry my knives out with a blow dryer. The combination of air being blown into it along with the heat dries out nicely, I've never had a problem.Just take the time and your knife will be fine.

Second, H-1 is incapable of rusting.

We're getting a bit off-topic but, my point (since you clearly missed it) is that I did what would be considered due dilligence in taking care of this knife. Spyderco's manual doesn't say that you have to dry it out with a blow-dryer, air compressor, or anything of the sort, it just says dry and oil it.

Furthermore, you fail to address the real point I'm making which is: why would you think it advantageous to make a knife where the stop pin corrodes more easily than, say, the pivot pin, liners, and blade? I don't see why that would make the knife better, or why that is consistent with the knife's use? Could you possibly address that question rather than ignoring it again?

As far as H1 being incapable of rusting, I believe you need to brush up on your chemistry.

bearfacedkiller wrote:I understand not being able to get a knife completely dry inside the liners, especially with nested liners, but for your stop pin which is exposed and easily accessible to rust like that I have a hard time believing that it was left as clean and dry as possible.

The pins and liners are not made out of the same metal as the blade for a number of obvious reasons.

S30v is not as stainless as the steel that the liners and pins are made of in my opinion and therefore I believe your statement that the rest of the knife is less stainless is untrue.

Linking some threads from people who have had similar problems does not prove a lot to me. You can validate any opinion with some quick google searching which is one of the major diservices the Internet provides us.

I wonder if Spyderco got a bad batch of stop pins. That is the only other thing I could think of.

What climate do you live in? That could be a variable that is being left out. I have never had a problem but I live in a semi arid climates.
Let me respond point by point:

- This is part of why I was so shocked, I really did leave it pretty **** clean and dry particularly since it was so accessible. If I'd put the knife away really sopping wet, I'd be far less put out over all this.

- No, obviously they're not, to do so would be absurd however you're missing the point: why would they not be made out of a steel which is as corrosion resistant as the blade? Same example I used before, would you make an H1 knife with easily rusting pins? Probably not.

- So other people having the same issue as I did, one even posting in this thread, is a disservice and doesn't validate my point how? If there are instances of this specific issue, premature corrosion of the stop pin on Para2s, that seems pretty relevant particularly to all the people trying to make the argument that I'm somehow crazy, an idiot, or grossly incompetent because my stop pin also rusted in a manner which I consider unreasonable. This actually leads perfectly into your next point which was "I wonder if Spyderco got a bad batch of stop pins. That is the only other thing I could think of." Yes, now we're getting somewhere. This is also why it is highly relevant what other people's experiences were, and part of why I posted this here.
bearfacedkiller wrote:What is the point of this thread? Are we looking for some sort of outcomes? Are we just informing the folks at Spyderco of a potential problem or are we just venting a complaint or are we seeking some sort of resolution? You did say that you resolved the issue yourself, correct?
Good question. I had several goals, venting wasn't among them but then again being accused of being unintelligent, incompetent, unreasonable etc weren't among them either so.... clearly we've gotten a bit off-track. My goals were to see if other people had similar experiences (which they have), and if there was some sort of resolution to this I was unaware of (and still am). I typically don't expect Spyderco to be run by idiots, I find it to be the case that it actually is a pretty intelligent company, so if you were to exclude the argument that I'm out of my mind for following their cleaning instructions, the only logical conclusion to reach is that there was, probably, a bad batch of stop pins at some point or I got a lemon. That is really getting at why I posted this hear. Also, to perhaps a lesser extent, to warn people that either A) their stop pins might have a corrosion issue or B) soap and water cleaning might not be the best idea. Given the forum consensus thus far, I can only reach the conclusion that, at least when something goes wrong, most of the members on this forum believe soap and water cleaning without disassembly is an unreasonable use of the knife.


*edit*

I would just like to add that, I'm surprised almost nobody here is defending Spyderco, and that people here would just expect a part of a knife to rust out while the rest remains unscathed. It is honestly a little embarrassing to see people so readily throwing away this brand I personally cherish and have stuck with for decades. :/ What happened?
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