What are the "hard-use" spyderco FOLDERS?

[Laethageal]

Guess we have different job

[bdblue]

Footnote: I don't take any of my folders backpacking, of any brand. That's a job for a fixie with a full tang.

I don't go in for chopping down forests with a knife. I've done a lot of backpacking, well it was back in the "zero impact" days, and all I carried was a Gerber LST. It was more than enough for what I needed.

I prefer to abuse cheaper knives

I have a couple of cheap knives for abuse, but very little of what I do would be considered abuse, maybe none of what I do. I think the OP was talking about hard use, but not abuse. He was talking about using the knife for what it was intended for- cutting things. Incidental in that cutting might be bumping other things, whatever.

If you are restricting hard use to be cutting when there is heavy force applied like carving hardwood flooring, then you would be hard pressed to break an Air.

I've always been curious how durable the Air is- as an engineer I cringe when I think about the bending strength of that blade. But I'm sure it is satisfactory for its owners or Spyderco would change it. Many people that carry small traditional knives have blades that are very thin. The only knife I own that has broken is an old traditional handed down from my father. He worked in a garage and surely used it to try to pry something apart and broke the tip off. I dressed the tip on a grinder and used it as a folding screwdriver that also had a knife edge on it, very handy when working on cars.

My wife bought some cheap accordion curtains that you cut to length, and they come with a thin utility knife to cut them with. The knife is about the size of the average paring knife but with a wharncliff blade so I put it in my tool cabinet when I finished. I was going to cut a small cardboard box the other day and pulled that knife out. I managed to break it just cutting a slit in a small cardboard box and I was trying to be reasonably careful. It looked like cheap carbon steel, I wondered if maybe it was hardened too much. I suppose a person could do a lot of heavy cutting with a Bradley Air, but maybe the next person could break one just cutting a box.


OK after all that, on to the original question. My own "hard use" knife is a franken-Manix 2 that I bought- black G10 with M4 blade. I carry it on weekends when I'm working around the house. I think a lot of Spyderco knives could be used for hard use cutting. Us enthusiasts will weigh the various characteristics of knives and pick certain ones that we think would work, but I'm sure that lots of non-enthusiasts use their Delicas, Tenacious and Enduras for heavy cutting without thinking twice about it, and the knives probably do just fine. I have a Para2 in addition to the Manix 2 and if I had to pick just one for carry I would pick the PM2, but in my mind at least the Manix 2 is a tougher knife.

[RamZar]

Along with the usual suspects, I recently encountered a small tough hard-use Spyderco folder: The Battlestation.

Weighs a stout 4.53 ounces with a blade length of just under 3 inches. Blade thickness is 0.133 inches and significantly 0.135 inches in the tip area and the actual tip 0.066 inches. Very secure grip but a little jimping would've been welcomed. It's a mini tank and great for the emergency prying.

[salimoneus]

The Bradley is a tank of a folder and the M4 is pretty tough stuff, gets my vote.

[3rdGenRigger]

Along with the usual suspects, I recently encountered a small tough hard-use Spyderco folder: The Battlestation.

Weighs a stout 4.53 ounces with a blade length of just under 3 inches. Blade thickness is 0.133 inches and significantly 0.135 inches in the tip area and the actual tip 0.066 inches. Very secure grip but a little jimping would've been welcomed. It's a mini tank and great for the emergency prying.

My two go-to small "Heavy Duty" Spydercos are the BattleStation and Techno. As for larger Spydies...I'll reach for my Vallotton, or more often and especially my Schempp Tuff if I have an especially heavy duty task for one of my knives. I have total faith in my CruWear twins, or my 204P PM2 etc. for anything from breaking down cardboard to cutting the thickest zip ties available (The black UV rated ones which we use LOTS of at work), and I used my old Chaparral for that too but if I know I'll be doing a lot of heavy cutting with some twisting action on the edge of the knife it's BattleStation, Techno, Vallotton, or Schempp Tuff for me.

[Evil D]

To me hard use means any knife you're willing to push past the limits that it was designed to be used for and you won't be heart broken if it breaks. I've done a lot of really stupid things with a SAK blade, some have broke but the vast majority of them lived to cut another day. There is also something to be said about the skill of the user, because a person who knows what they're doing can beat on a knife and make it do things that should break it, while a careless person can snap a blade off while carving a knot off a branch.

[dogrunner]

Lots of interesting viewpoints here, all valid. It is always interesting to see how people interpret a question. BdBlue had it right - I (OP) carry knives because I have lots of chores that involve cutting things. My question was motivated by curiosity about what tools designed as cutting instruments could survive if used in a way that goes beyond what the typical knife enthusiast would do with their ... uh, precioussss (sorry, I'm spoofing myself as much as anyone). But I'm mostly a practical person who happens to appreciate well-made tools. I'm not a collector and don't buy knives unless I think I will use them. I do buy more than I need, partly because I like to try different tools and a lot of times because I like spares (ok, so I never have to sharpen anything :) ). I don't carry "cheapo" knives because I have low tolerance for edges that don't cut well and last a long time, locks and pivots that seem loose or weak, etc. I like knives that make chores easier, so they should cut well and I hate sharpening, cuz that takes time, so edge durability is important. When I'm working in remote locations and have limited gear (usually because of personal load limits), I carry at least one 4" fixed blade and 1 or 2 folders (one of my PM2s and a delica usually get the call). But even when I'm within walking distance of home I usually don't run home to get another tool if I think I can do a task with one of the knives on me (lazy or not enough time?), so I do use my precious PM2 CF/S90V for just about anything that I think won't total the edge. So far I have not broken the tip, but I did on my original PM1 and that edge chipped out pretty badly (S30V, probably before spyderco dialed in the HT for that steel). I actually have damaged VG10 edges by cutting things lying on the ground and having the blade go through and hitting rocks or whatever underneath and I've hit fencing wire or barbed wire more than once on multiple knives. So I don't baby my knives either. I really enjoyed Cliff's description of knife forum knife users :) I'm not a tradesman, but the reason I bought additional sprint versions of the PM2 (seriously my all-time favorite knife) is so I won't feel so bad if I damage one. As far as whether the Bradley Air counts as hard use - it is definitely well-built out of high quality material and M4 is an awesome steel, but the thin blade is a great cutter but I would not want to lean on it too hard for more reasons than one, not the least of which is how secure a grip I can get on it with that small handle and no guard, but also because I often do things that start a cut by digging the tip in (one of the reasons I like the PM2 over Manix2s, of which I also own several, is the pointy tip on the PM2). The Air is just a little thing. I don't use any of my Delica's for stuff like that either because I can feel them flexing if I lean on it. Anyway, lots of interesting experiences - thanks everyone for sharing.
And Ramzar - thanks for the suggestion on the Battlestation - I don't have one and had forgotten about it, but it does look pretty sturdy.

btw, @ Cliff - you did say the K2 was not a hard-use knife in your review, which I found very insightful (the review I mean), so you do see limits to uses for knives. I remember an old review you did on the Manix where you used it for some bushcraft stuff. Your testing takes knives closer to their mechanical limits than many reviewers, so you obviously think about these concerns!

[Cliff Stamp]

As far as whether the Bradley Air counts as hard use - it is definitely well-built out of high quality material and M4 is an awesome steel, but the thin blade is a great cutter but I would not want to lean on it too hard for more reasons than one, not the least of which is how secure a grip I can get on it with that small handle and no guard, but also because I often do things that start a cut by digging the tip in (one of the reasons I like the PM2 over Manix2s, of which I also own several, is the pointy tip on the PM2).

The handle issue is an interesting point that many people over look as they focus on durability. However if you are talking about hard use then it isn't unreasonable to also assume that the cutting could be hard/fast and in that case the Air really isn't an ideal choice. The hard part about the cutting is likely to be on the user more so than the knife because of the affects of losing grip security. It again just all starts to smear out over the hard use label. For example you could easily cut up sod with the Air and it would seem sensible to call that hard use because of the wear/tear it places on the knife but I would not want to try to use it to cut through a 2" mooring line with a heavily damaged end that needed to be cut off because the knife is simply too small and there are grip issues and the work would simply be dangerous or at least really inefficient.

...you did say the K2 was not a hard-use knife in your review

I would not use it for any cutting which requires significant force (10+ lbs) because of issues with ergonomics/comfort (handle chamfering, clip is has squarish edges) so it isn't a hard use knife in that respect. I would also not pick it for heavy use of the type where the edge will get damaged (cutting any dirty material, or very hard/abrasive material like shingles) because the steel will tend to fracture and the grindability is very low thus it will take more damage and be longer to repair. For that type of heavy cutting I would prefer a much more durable steel to limit the damage and reduce the edge repair time. 3V for example over 10V, but personally I would step it down even further to 0.5V class steels.

In the thread I also made a comment that the general design was different than I expected because it was promoted initially as some kind of heavy-duty knife but in reality it has a very thin primary grind and edge profile which is geared more so towards cutting than some kind of utility application (sabre-ground Endura for example). A few light changes to the knife (handle chamfer, wire/milled/pancake clip and tip modification) would make it a very nice general purpose knife and likely bump the Paramilitary out of my pocket, assuming no issues develop with the lock in use.

[Ankerson]

I have been reading this thread over the past few days... Interesting thread....

Hard use...... FOLDER.......????

Well that's a subjective term and covers a pretty broad spectrum on what people believe hard use is.

To some people it could be battoning, prying, smacking with a hammer, stabbing through car doors, throwing and other types of things nobody should be really doing with any folder as it for the most part covers abuse. Those are pretty much the knuckle draggers so I won't really spend all that much time on them...

To some others that could mean some harder cutting tasks like outdoor stuff like making fuzzy sticks, splitting flat wood for a fire, that doesn't mean batoning as the blade can usually be pushed through flat wood easy. Cleaning and cutting up game and or fish, cutting through bone as needed, making shelters, cutting and stripping wire, cutting drywall, cardboard, thick zip ties, assorted straps and other things some people use their knives for at work or camping, hunting etc...

And still for others that would mean talking the knife out of the box and opening it a thousand times a day sitting around flicking it while watching TV or whatever.... Maybe opening a bag of chips... Maybe......


So I would say the TUFF would be at the top of the list as it covers all of it pretty well.

The Manix 2, Military and Para 2, and Gayle Bradly cover the middle one well.


In the end people need to think and use some common since before using a folder for a lot of things that some tend to believe they should be able to, most of them would be tasks for a fixed blade or another tool...

[Laethageal]

I would not use it for any cutting which requires significant force (10+ lbs) because of issues with ergonomics/comfort (handle chamfering, clip is has squarish edges) so it isn't a hard use knife in that respect

In my test, I performed many hundreds of cut in wood with a force I'd estimate close to 30lbs with no trouble at all with ergonomics, nor sore hand after cutting wood for 1 hour with minimal pause going from one tree to the next. As far as ergo are involved, I have no trouble pushing on this knife.

I would also not pick it for heavy use of the type where the edge will get damaged (cutting any dirty material, or very hard/abrasive material like shingles) because the steel will tend to fracture and the grindability is very low thus it will take more damage and be longer to repair. For that type of heavy cutting I would prefer a much more durable steel to limit the damage and reduce the edge repair time. 3V for example over 10V, but personally I would step it down even further to 0.5V class steels.

I haven't dont any testing on dirty material or very hard and abrasive material. It hold an edge a long time cutting cardboard and wood but did present some chipping. Without having that much knowledge on steel as some other and you, I'd guess that tougher steel would be better suited for material like shingles. I'm by no mean a fast sharpener nor a really skillful one, so the best way would be to compare it to how long it would have taken with another steel. It only took me a few minutes (about 5) to remove them, which is almost as fast as I'd get my SB clean of similar chip. The biggest part was the change between grits and taking time to compensate for different thickness of stone. If more material had to be removed (like it would surely happen if cutting harder/more abrasive material or hitting a rock), it would have been longer to sharpen back the 10V vs SB.

In the thread I also made a comment that the general design was different than I expected because it was promoted initially as some kind of heavy-duty knife but in reality it has a very thin primary grind and edge profile which is geared more so towards cutting than some kind of utility application (sabre-ground Endura for example). A few light changes to the knife (handle chamfer, wire/milled/pancake clip and tip modification) would make it a very nice general purpose knife and likely bump the Paramilitary out of my pocket, assuming no issues develop with the lock in use.

With the use I putted on the K2 and perfect lockup I now get (it's not sticky anymore btw) I have no fear of the knife lock to fail on me.

[NoFair]

The Spydercos I use hardest are a PE and SE Pacific Salt. They sharpen up easily and the grind is pretty stout. Both are scratched and ugly, but no issues even after years of use. They are also loaned out from time to time.

Been pretty hard on my old Lil'Temp as well. My Lionspy seems very sturdy even with my thinner grind and the thick tip makes it suitable for prying and digging that I don't do with my Military. I'd hesitate to batton a folder and there aren't that many scenarios where I think that would be needed either.

[Surfingringo]

The Spydercos I use hardest are a PE and SE Pacific Salt. They sharpen up easily and the grind is pretty stout. Both are scratched and ugly, but no issues even after years of use. They are also loaned out from time to time.

Been pretty hard on my old Lil'Temp as well. My Lionspy seems very sturdy even with my thinner grind and the thick tip makes it suitable for prying and digging that I don't do with my Military. I'd hesitate to batton a folder and there aren't that many scenarios where I think that would be needed either.

Yes, my Pacific salt is not my "hardest use" knife but it is my hardest used knife.

[JD Spydo]

JD Spydo - the other knife I have, but that is no longer produced is the Lil Temp in 440V. That is a stout knife too and definitely qualifies IMO as a hard use knife.

This is a great thread you started "Dogrunner" because there have been some models mentioned that I never suspected them of being super-tough per se. But you Sir mentioned the 440V Lil Temperance and all I can say is that I would like to shake your hand because I've also had some experience with that model. The leaf blade Lil T is truly a pit bull of a knife and in Spyderedge, 440V I don't think anything could stop it or destroy it. It's actually beefier and sturdier than my dearly beloved 440V Spyderedged NATIVE and I'm sure it would easily outlast it. That model just has to come back to the main line up>> and with one of those newer Carpenter steels or even one of the obscure CPM steels would be great as well.

The other Brother mentioned the original CHINOOK>> that is truly a tank of a folder. I could still kick myself for selling my FFG, S30V Chinook III but I was desperate for some cash and the guy was willing to pay dearly for it. But I do intend on getting it back at some point. That would be another super Sprint model with an exotic blade steel and it would sell like Rolling Stones tickets I'm sure.

I've yet to test drive one of the TUFF models but it's sure on my "want list" and I will have one someday (Lord Willing). One more unlikely candidate I would like to add and put up for consideration. I do believe that the original fixed blade Temperance 1 FB05 model is probably the most underestimated of all the Spyders from the mid 2000 decade. I've put my PE and my SE versions both through living **** and you can't even tell it. But I could make a long list but you get where I'm coming from. Spyderco's folders and fixed blades both do indeed come up to the challenge of endurance and longevity.

When I talk to fellow survivalists and preppers and students of the subject>> I just tell them with knives you just can't go wrong with a Spyderco period.

[Evil D]

The irony of hard use folders and even fixed blades and survival is that in the worst case scenario you want to avoid using your knife as much as possible anyway, so even if you have the most gnarly folder on Earth, you'd be wise to not baton with it even if you're pretty sure it will survive. You don't wanna be the guy who discovered the limits of a knife and it be your only cutting tool.

[Surfingringo]

The irony of hard use folders and even fixed blades and survival is that in the worst case scenario you want to avoid using your knife as much as possible anyway, so even if you have the most gnarly folder on Earth, you'd be wise to not baton with it even if you're pretty sure it will survive. You don't wanna be the guy who discovered the limits of a knife and it be your only cutting tool.

Hah! It's funny you mention that because I've thought that many times when reading the "end of the world and you can only have one knife" threads. Im betting you would be pretty gentle with it whatever that one was. :rolleyes: