Pricing...huh?

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

Not a dig, nor a complaint. Just genuinely curious.

K2. Super high end steel, collab, huge amount of materials approx $225

Slysz Bowie. High end steel, collab, smaller amount of materials approx $280

I'm not understanding the huge price difference especially considering the size (amount of materials) and the difference in steel.

[Strong-Dog]

Not a dig, nor a complaint. Just genuinely curious.

K2. Super high end steel, collab, huge amount of materials approx $225

Slysz Bowie. High end steel, collab, smaller amount of materials approx $280

I'm not understanding the huge price difference especially considering the size (amount of materials) and the difference in steel.

Three theories:

1. The Bowie has contoured handles, which may be very expensive to do in a production setting.

2. The Bowie has (supposedly, never handled one) better finishing.

3. Maybe Slysz is just way more expensive to collab with than Farid.

Now, do I think any of these reasons (or all or them even) warrant the big price difference? No, but I'm not Spyderco so what do I know?

[remnar]

I was wondering the same thing. ??

[Strong-Dog]

I think a lot of us should hold off on purchasing a Slysz Bowie until we hear from Spyderco the exact reason(s) for the unwarranted (totally subjective and possible ignorant, I know) expense. I mean, we're loyal customers, and the Slysz just seems way out of the norm. I want to buy one, I really do, but I think this is important to figure out.

When Spyderco is capable and willing to produce something like the K2 with a street price of $223, the Slysz is almost insulting. I mean that in the most respectful way possible to Spyderco, as again, I know nothing about the actual reasons and could be totally wrong.

It just seems INSANE that the Bowie, even assuming that Slysz, extra finishing work, and contoured handles added extra expense, could be THAT much more expensive than the much bigger K2 made of CPM-10V (!) and otherwise the same materials. In my mind, the prices would make more sense reversed.

[Cujobob]

Why are people so concerned about this?

Finish work/labor is expensive. Material cost is only one cost. There's material waste to consider, CNC programming, different steps in the finishing process, etc.

Spyderco could have simply raised the price of the K2 and you'd never think twice about it.

[IG-88]

Every $1 you add to the production price get multiplied in the retail price. And every extra production step represents extra costs. Maybe the process of rounding the spine and scales add quite some complexity? The Bowie has a beter finished, wouldn't that add steps in production?

Are we sure CPM-10V is more expensive then CTS-XHP? When I look at the pricing online I have the impressiong XHP is the more expensive steel. Maybe CTS prices are higher in general?

[mikerestivo]

Why are people so concerned about this?

Finish work/labor is expensive. Material cost is only one cost. There's material waste to consider, CNC programming, different steps in the finishing process, etc.

Spyderco could have simply raised the price of the K2 and you'd never think twice about it.

I don't know that that "... so concerned..." is really present to any great degree. The OP posted that he was just curious and there does not appear to be genuine groundswell of outrage afoot.

This is merely a discussion forum, and that's what he came here to do - discuss - which is the point, right?

[Blerv]

In the description the Bowie mentions having scales that are gently radiused their entire width and the knife has a g10 backspacer similar to the techno.

Not sure if these details are on the K2. On that basis, not sure they represent all the details that are different. It's possible they just can't be seen by the naked eye (such as R&D nightmares). Ultimately you just have to vote with your wallet and trust MSRP is based on cost to produce.

10v is way less grindable than XHP and there are more materials in the K2. If I lived where carry laws didn't exist the Bowie wouldn't get a second look.

[The Deacon]

Ultimately you just have to vote with your wallet and trust MSRP is based on cost to produce.

Exactly. I have no interest in either knife, but if I did, I'd assume that Spyderco's profit percentage was the same for both of them and that their MSRPs reflected the sum of production costs, royalty payments, a consistent formula for recouping R&D costs, and that profit percentage.

[78lilred]

It'll be interesting if Sal chimes in, there's a lot of people questioning the Rubicon pricing and such a low grade steel also. Now that they offer various steels in models everyone expects the highest carbide steel possible for cheapest price. The contoured handles will add price to the Slysz, how much cannot be said unless Spyderco tells us. The blade being stone washed also adds steps to the production/cost. Contoured handles/Stone washing/Backspacers could be the ~$60 price difference.

[gbelleh]

I'd be willing to bet that most of the additional cost is simply because the Bowie takes more time to produce. The contoured scales, rounded blade spine, etc., take time which equals higher cost. Just like the Chaparral 3.

Smaller doesn't always mean less expensive. It seems clear to me that the Bowie just takes more man (and machine) hours to make. The Chap 3 is the perfect example to see the difference in price this can make. Everything was equal between the Chap 2 and 3, no royalties, material differences, size differences, etc. But the one that required more machining was significantly more expensive. I'd guess that machining a smooth curve into solid titanium is not a quick machining operation.

[cckw]

I have worked in manufacturing it the business end, not the mfg. Every cost is calculated and every cost is marked up. There is an exact formula that is applied equally to all products made. So if there is a little extra machine work on one thing it really shows up in the price. You might wonder why not take the markup off of this one detail. While it is tempting to do this to make a desired price point, it is rarely done. If you did not have any markup on the machining and the machine breaks, what then? just take the loss? How much work do you want to do in order to loose money? I don't mean to make Sal sound like a martyr or anything. I promise at this point he makes more money then me and you combined. Just trying to explain why costs vary when at a glance things don't appear much different on the surface.

I better add this, my info is 10 years old.. where I worked all products were treated the same. But not all industries do that.. In cars due to gov CAFE standard high gas mileage cars are low margin to get a lot sold so their average gas mileage is high enough, then they make it back on me and my F150 4wd.. Jewelry is much higher margin on womens then mens.

[senorsquare]

I think the extra labor and machining on the scales and spine is likely the culprit. Another factor would be the outstanding polished and stonewashed finish on the Slysz Bowie's blade. These things take time, and time is money.

[Nate]

My take is that while 10v is probably harder to work with, the Slysz is overall more time consuming to produce. Several extra screws, backspacer, reversable clip, scale contouring... There may be other reasons as well.

[mb1]

I had the same questions on the Southfork. I think part of what didn't jump out at me right away was realizing the cost or profit sharing on a collaboration model. I was having a hard time getting my head around an S90V fixed blade being up there with an S110V folder for ex. Heard "collaboration cost" mentioned and I think that answered a bit for me.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

Yes lets not get all up in arms or anything...I do plan on eventually buying both of these knives, and the costs, while high, are not a deterrent for me. I was genuinely curious because it would seem from looking at the knives that they are very similar in a lot more ways than they are different. Down to the fact that both of the collaborators are European even. So from where I was looking, the price had to be down to manufacturing. But given that 10V is such a beast to work with and there was so much of it used, one would think that would offset a couple extra screws and some stonewashing. But perhaps I am wrong in that assumption. And maybe the contouring adds a lot more cost than one would generally think.
Like I said, curious. Not outraged or accusatory...

[mikerestivo]

I get the impression that any question directed at pricing comes as unwelcome to some forum members. I have seen a tendency toward questioning of Spyderco practices being met with a degree of defensiveness by some of our members, and I think that it diminishes the discussion that can be had.

We all have an affinity for Spyderco, or we would not be here. I don't think that there is cause to take any of these questions personally.

I think that asking questions about pricing are appropriate for this forum. I do not consider it blasphemy to ask questions and wonder, so long as it does not involve personal attacks or demeaning behavior, (which this thread has not had). This is a place for discussion, communication, and exchange of ideas, so why not? And what better place to hear honest feedback, as Spyderco, than here?

It is obvious that price is a major factor in making any purchase, and there are a few basic types of interested buyer for these knives:

1. those that gotta have it an will pay however an item is priced without regard to cost
2. those that want it and will pony up and pay, grudgingly, to get it
3. those that want it, but can't afford it (i.e. price is above their pain threshold)

I also think that most of us can agree that Spyderco makes some of the best working knives on the planet for the price.

But I don't think that the OP's question is an attack on the company or its pricing structure, but more of a question of comparison versus another model that would seem, in his eyes, to be priced at the same point or greater.

[bh49]

Just looking at the cost of these knives make me happy that I do not care about flat Ti.

[Fancier]

If both knives were $100 cheaper would we still be having this discussion? I've been following the chat about the pricing of the Slysz Bowie since it was first announced and we got pictures to drool over. There have been two constant themes, comparison to the Sebenzas and hoping that it would cost less than $200. Guess what, those themes are still alive, but with the release of the K2 the discussion about the price has morphed into what we have now, a comparison with the K2 and a lot of guesswork about Sal's pricing model.
Sal doesn't say much about pricing, but there are a couple of common themes there, too. I've heard directly from Sal that prices are based on cost of production (which is going to include everything from exchange rates to taxes to design to machine time to steel). I've heard rumors that some models are priced as "loss leaders" because they draw customers into the brand, just like the dollar menu at your local fast food joint. Examples given are the Para2 and the Manix2, and I note that those models are perennially hard to find in stores and I would price them significantly higher than Sal does for that reason.
I don't hear anything about the collaborations being priced at a discount, and since they are specialty knives that tend to appeal to a smaller segment of the knife community I don't think we ever will except when they are being discontinued. Please also recall the noise made when the Techno came out, I heard a lot of chatter about how little knife was being offered for the money. That one appealed to a pretty small segment of even the Spyderco fans when it first came out, not just the general knife buying public. It turned out to eventually be popular enough to get us the Bowie, which is a pretty cool looking knife. One of these days I'm going to buy both of the new framelocks, mostly because I've been waiting for somebody to make a nice framelock without those ugly **** thumb studs, but first my wife has to get re-employed. Thanks for listening!

[JNewell]

Collaborations do not seem to be priced uniformly, and like many above I assume that different designers have different arrangements with Spyderco. It's fine - if a particular collaboration knife seems expensive, we can just pass. :spyder: