Whyyy, dodo disappointment

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Bradley
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Whyyy, dodo disappointment

#1

Post by Bradley »

I've put it off far too long, my dod has had a stuck lock for a couple of months now, and I just got it to the post office today. I hope Sal & Co are able to repair it. My collection has been missing a vital piece, as the dodo is my favorite small carry. :eek: :o
Last edited by Bradley on Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stugots-II
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Re: Orange dodo's journey to the motherland

#2

Post by Stugots-II »

Yeah I am going to have to send mine in soon enough too. Ever since I bought it(only owner) it has had a sticky lock unlike any of my other ball bearing locks cage or not. I often have to push the plunger with the spring from side to side in order for it to release.

So is yours completely locked up? Was it open or closed it that was the case?
Bradley
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Re: Orange dodo's journey to the motherland

#3

Post by Bradley »

Stugots-II wrote:So is yours completely locked up? Was it open or closed it that was the case?
It's stuck open :(
Bradley
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Re: Orange dodo's journey to the motherland

#4

Post by Bradley »

Unfortunately the lock has failed again. This time from just a simple opening. Pretty disappointed to have this happen on one of my favorites. Will sending it in result in the same fix provided before, only to result in this happening again? Perhaps I'll just request credit at the sfo, and pick up a few seto kitchen knives. :(
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Drahkis
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Re: Orange dodo's journey to the motherland

#5

Post by Drahkis »

This is an interesting thread in that I also have an orange dodo with a lock that sticks. It has come loose every time so far... but a few times I didn't think it likely.
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3rdGenRigger
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Re: Orange dodo's journey to the motherland

#6

Post by 3rdGenRigger »

My new one sticks very slightly as well. If I pull up on the blade it doesn't so I expect it will break in as it's very slight.
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Bradley
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Re: Orange dodo's journey to the motherland

#7

Post by Bradley »

I wish it was only sticky. Its completely stuck in the open position. Its obvious they didn't replace anything on the knife besides possibly the ball bearing. Disappointed doesnt adequately express my level of unhappiness.
Bradley
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Re: Orange dodo's journey to the motherland

#8

Post by Bradley »

It was gone at the factory for over a month, shipping paid both ways by me, and in less than 50 openings I'm in the same boat. Sheesh, never thought it'd happen this way.
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timlara
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Re: Orange dodo's journey to the motherland

#9

Post by timlara »

Sorry to hear that, Bradley. I haven't had any functional problems with the lock on my orange Dodo, but was definitely stiff/sticky as well when I first got it. It improved slightly with use, but it is definitely not nearly as smooth and easy to use as my original blue Dodo.

I remember reading that the lock geometry was supposedly improved on the orange Dodo (and maybe the ceramic / CF one?), but based on the ones I've handled it doesn't seem as good as the original for whatever reason.

Hopefully the warranty guys will have better luck fixing it this time. It seems like the most likely cause would be that the machining is a little bit off. Looking at my orange Dodo, I can see a tiny gap and "ledge" where the backspacer recess meets the tang recess to form the channel that the ball bearing moves inside, and it seems like that is one place where the ball can kind of catch/hang when I disengage the lock. (see first photo) On mine, it's not enough of a ledge to make my lock get stuck, but I could definitely see how it could if it were off by just a teeny bit more.

Also, there is kind of a rounded corner/facet carved out on either side of the recess on the tang which might also have been one of the changes from the original Dodo...sadly, I don't still have mine to compare them side by side. I'm not sure what the purpose of that facet is.

Image

Image
Bradley
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Re: Whyyy, dodo disappointment

#10

Post by Bradley »

The bearing seems to slide further towards the blade, than when locked up properly. Same situation as before, makes me believe the ledge that is supposed to prevent the bearing from engaging so far has been worn away enough to allow the bearing to nest between the tang and the steel above the bearing. Interesting and unfortunate event for sure
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3rdGenRigger
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Re: Whyyy, dodo disappointment

#11

Post by 3rdGenRigger »

Mine barely sticks, but it's dependent on how hard the blade is opened. If I thumb flick it open it sticks, but if I open it slowly it doesn't, explaining why it doesn't stick if I pull up on the blade. I have only had mine for a few days though.
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timlara
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Re: Whyyy, dodo disappointment

#12

Post by timlara »

Bradley wrote:The bearing seems to slide further towards the blade, than when locked up properly. Same situation as before, makes me believe the ledge that is supposed to prevent the bearing from engaging so far has been worn away enough to allow the bearing to nest between the tang and the steel above the bearing. Interesting and unfortunate event for sure
Huh...major bummer. If the bearing went forward much more than my photo, it would definitely be harder to get a grip on to release as well, let alone the fact it's stuck. If you do get a successful fix and resolution/explanation, please be sure to update this thread. I'd be interested to know what was done.
Bradley
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Re: Whyyy, dodo disappointment

#13

Post by Bradley »

The first time it happened I tried everything, including wrenching the blade up and prying the bearing back with a flathead screwdriver. Obviously it didn't work and it found it's way back to CO. This will likely be solved the same way
yablanowitz
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Re: Whyyy, dodo disappointment

#14

Post by yablanowitz »

Huh. I've not had any problems with my orange Dodo. My originals didn't always lock securely, but since I treat all folding knives as if they were folding knives, it was never a problem. I'm a bit curious about your opening method. Was it controlled, thumb flicked or wrist snapped open?
Bradley
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Re: Whyyy, dodo disappointment

#15

Post by Bradley »

The first time it was a wrist flick. This time, it was a very slow, controlled opening. And I haven't flicked it once since I received it back a month ago. This knife hasn't seen ANY abuse, just minor cutting chores.
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hunterseeker5
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Re: Whyyy, dodo disappointment

#16

Post by hunterseeker5 »

As someone who loves to speculate about technical issues.....

I have two things I think it likely is, or rather are contributing to it.

1) relative angle of locking components. Basically the closer to parallel your locking surfaces are, the less rearward force you're going to apply to the bearing to drive it rearward (as the lock is stressed) so the lower the chances it'll slip, drive itself rearward, and the lock will fail. That said, as these surfaces become closer to parallel, the reduction in tension from rearward travel is reduced and the greater the ability to "wedge" the ball up there. Think of it this way: if the angle between the locking anvil and the blade tang were 90 degrees, your lock would basically be impossible to get stuck..... and would also have negligible ability to lock the knife.

2) Rough finish on locking surfaces. - Simple enough, if there is a little roughness on the locking surfaces (which there have been on mine, but mine was an old SS Dodo and had the rough laser blanking marks on the tang) your ball can get stuck above such a mark. Again this feeds into how close to parallel the surfaces are.

3) Lubrication issues - steel against steel, particularly two types of stainless, is galling waiting to happen. This is why, for the longest time, you'd have been foolish to buy a full stainless steel 1911 for example. (now you just buy one which has been entirely nitrided and its a moot point, but I digress) You need a lubricant which can endure the surprisingly high loads involved in these locking faces. You wouldn't think it'd be that high, but it is for whatever reason. I've tried a wide variety of different lubricants. Tuff Glide has some benefits, but a PTFE or molly grease might do you better. Personally, in a fit of desperation, I'd personally try manually working in dry molly powder and seeing if that wouldn't adequately slick up the surfaces.

I'll also add that, while I have no idea what lubricant spyderco uses on its cutlery, I've never been just jumping for joy impressed. Its not horrible, but it appears to be just some sort of basic light oil. This results in complaints of sticking problems, inadequate lubrication, and contaminant accumulation. Dry film lubrication, particularly bonded, won't attract crap. Greases have better cling, are intended for non-immersion applications (like cutlery), and generally can carry more of better additives. A classic case in point is CRK knives. They're precisely manufactured, don't get me wrong, but a lot of that uber CRK "hydraulic" smoothness just comes from a moderately high viscosity PTFE grease which they apply to their knives. You can achieve the same effect with a few dabs of said grease on a Gayle Bradley or the like.

Food for thought.
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Blerv
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Re: Whyyy, dodo disappointment

#17

Post by Blerv »

I had my original orange Dodo replaced due to lock stick (I taped up the blade and sent it with warning stickers all over the place). This current one is perfect.

I'm not an engineering-type but a BBL seems to have far more places to bind than say a RIL. The friction from a ball bearing to a hardened blade spine should be very low even devoid of lubrication. However, if it's off a bit I can see how it would be a problem.

The only thing I would say is to keep sending it back to Spyderco until it's "right" rather than trying to tweak it with a screw driver or something. You are just more likely to get a properly working knife or a store credit.
JD Spydo
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Re: Whyyy, dodo disappointment

#18

Post by JD Spydo »

yablanowitz wrote:Huh. I've not had any problems with my orange Dodo. My originals didn't always lock securely, but since I treat all folding knives as if they were folding knives, it was never a problem. I'm a bit curious about your opening method. Was it controlled, thumb flicked or wrist snapped open?
YAB that's interesting and curious because I got one of the very first ones ever released from Spyderco way back in 2003 and I lube mine every time I carry it for a day or so with a dry graphite/teflon type dry lube and I've never had any problem with my Blue PE, first generation dodo. I guess maybe I'm lucky and got a well made unit that got a good quality control inspection. It's because of my first blue PE Dodo that I"ve always had a love for the ball bearing locking system.

But I do believe that a dry lube is the way to go with the ball bearing lock because a wet lube with that mechanism I do believe would draw lint and other debris to it like a magnet. It's worked well for me anyway.
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hunterseeker5
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Re: Whyyy, dodo disappointment

#19

Post by hunterseeker5 »

Blerv wrote:I'm not an engineering-type but a BBL seems to have far more places to bind than say a RIL. The friction from a ball bearing to a hardened blade spine should be very low even devoid of lubrication. However, if it's off a bit I can see how it would be a problem.
Unfortunately it just isn't the case. We think of hardened steel as slick, but it really isn't, at least not against other steel components. This is why, for example, bearings need lubrication. Bearings typically can be hardened much moreso than cutlery, as they require lower toughness, to the point where some can be made of ceramic. (whereas while there are ceramic knives, they fail due to fracture) Then again, I don't find it particularly exceptional to suggest that proper lubrication is necessary for a folding knife to function. You can get a horrible sticky feel to a knife's action from something as simple as the lubrication being driven out from between your blade tang and the ball detent on a liner lock.

I'm not sure what you'd tweak about the geometry of the lock yourself, so I'd concur with you on that. That said, I personally would have gone after it with a suite of different lubricants before throwing in the towel. Then again, perhaps not everyone has that sort of thing in their shop and it certainly isn't reasonable for Spyderco to expect them to as it is neither in the description nor owner's manual.
JD Spydo
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Re: Whyyy, dodo disappointment

#20

Post by JD Spydo »

hunterseeker5 wrote:
Blerv wrote:I'm not an engineering-type but a BBL seems to have far more places to bind than say a RIL. The friction from a ball bearing to a hardened blade spine should be very low even devoid of lubrication. However, if it's off a bit I can see how it would be a problem.
Unfortunately it just isn't the case. We think of hardened steel as slick, but it really isn't, at least not against other steel components. This is why, for example, bearings need lubrication. Bearings typically can be hardened much moreso than cutlery, as they require lower toughness, to the point where some can be made of ceramic. (whereas while there are ceramic knives, they fail due to fracture) Then again, I don't find it particularly exceptional to suggest that proper lubrication is necessary for a folding knife to function. You can get a horrible sticky feel to a knife's action from something as simple as the lubrication being driven out from between your blade tang and the ball detent on a liner lock.

I'm not sure what you'd tweak about the geometry of the lock yourself, so I'd concur with you on that. That said, I personally would have gone after it with a suite of different lubricants before throwing in the towel. Then again, perhaps not everyone has that sort of thing in their shop and it certainly isn't reasonable for Spyderco to expect them to as it is neither in the description nor owner's manual.
I find it interesting what you're saying "hunterseeker" because ever since I got my original Dodo with a ball bearing lock back in 03 the only lubricant I've ever used on it has been some type of dry lubricant. At first I used mainly graphite>> then Sentry Solutions came out with a great dry lube called "BP 2000" and I had great luck with it. Lately I've been using some stuff we have here at the shop which is a graphite/teflon dry lube. and it works well from what I can tell. I've never had any functional problem with my original 2003 vintage blue PE Dodo at all.

Now I do use wet lube on many of my conventional type folders. With my C-60 Sprint G-10 Ayoob model I mainly use nothing but Militec. Militec has been my favorite wet lube for some time now>> and the synthetic grease they sell is just nothing short of fantastic.
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