ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

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Cliff Stamp
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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby Cliff Stamp » Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:54 pm

gunmike1 wrote: Cliff, if you are still watching this thread, what is the biggest grit jump you would do from the 400 SS when applying a microbevel? It sounds like the Spyderco fines aren't an issue, which makes me think the 8000 glasstones might be able to apply the microbevel without any problems.
That would be an interesting experiment.

To be frank, while you can make large jumps with the NS 400, it does complicate the process. There is a very nice stone, the "green brick", the Aotoshi 2000. If I was going to micro-bevel with ultra fine finishes then I would work in the Aotoshi because it would make the process much simpler and less complicated.

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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby awa54 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:01 pm

can't freehand wrote:I recently bought an actual waterstone, my first, a King 6000 grit, $19 off Amazon.

I have no trouble sharpening my ZDP-189 Endura on ceramic rods, diamond or oil stones. However, my first try with the King 6000 was a total failure. I used extremely light pressure and I could only ever get it to barely shave hair. I'm really not sure what is going on. Perhaps I am supposed to use it differently from the other abrasives I've listed?

Normally I'd read around on Google to try and figure out my newbie problem but my current Fall schedule is too heavy for anything besides brief cries for help.
Of all the water stones I own the King 6000 is probably my least liked, it's very soft and has never delivered an edge that I was satisfied with... and I have given it many tries ans used different techniques with it. In this class I far prefer a hard stone, my Japan Woodworker natural finishing stone gives way better results and for not so much extra cost. Neither worked worth a darn on ZDP though, the Spyderco fine ceramic has given far better results with that steel.
-David

still more knives than sharpening stones...

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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby Cliff Stamp » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm

awa54 wrote:
Of all the water stones I own the King 6000 is probably my least liked, it's very soft and has never delivered an edge that I was satisfied with... and I have given it many tries ans used different techniques with it.

One of the most unfortunate things about stones is the lack of discussion of the idea that it takes a very different set of properties to ideally grind an edge vs the apex.

A very soft and muddy stone like the King 6000 is good for setting the edge and preparing the apex, but it is very difficult to use to set the apex. Now you can do it sure, but a hard bond stone less friable is far easier to use.

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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby gunmike1 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:25 pm

Cliff Stamp wrote:
gunmike1 wrote: Cliff, if you are still watching this thread, what is the biggest grit jump you would do from the 400 SS when applying a microbevel? It sounds like the Spyderco fines aren't an issue, which makes me think the 8000 glasstones might be able to apply the microbevel without any problems.
That would be an interesting experiment.

To be frank, while you can make large jumps with the NS 400, it does complicate the process. There is a very nice stone, the "green brick", the Aotoshi 2000. If I was going to micro-bevel with ultra fine finishes then I would work in the Aotoshi because it would make the process much simpler and less complicated.
So assuming I use a course DMT to set the bevel (and hopefully not apex), could I go straight to the Aotoshi 2000, or should I use DMT fine and/or glasstone 1000 before getting to the green brick prior to setting the microbevel?

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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby Cliff Stamp » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:29 pm

A course DMT is likely too big of a jump for the Aotoshi without a lot of work. Could you do it, sure, but the number of passes would be vastly reduced with an intermediate. The DMT fine won't really resolve the major problem which is the burr/over grind of the apex. A King 1000 or similar would be much more effective, you want a soft/slurry stone as an intermediate.

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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby gunmike1 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:34 am

Cliff Stamp wrote:A course DMT is likely too big of a jump for the Aotoshi without a lot of work. Could you do it, sure, but the number of passes would be vastly reduced with an intermediate. The DMT fine won't really resolve the major problem which is the burr/over grind of the apex. A King 1000 or similar would be much more effective, you want a soft/slurry stone as an intermediate.
I'll certainly have to pick up a soft/slurry stone to play with. I've used DMT XXC and C for both fast reprofiling as well as water stone flattening. It seems that the soft stones that I've avoided like the plague serve a very good purpose as long as you aren't setting the apex with them. The diamonds mangle the steel, therefore, even with burr minimization techniques I'm probably still dealing with weakened steel at the edge a lot of the time if I don't cut off the burr by going straight into the stone a few times. In your trials you've seen those soft stones set good back bevels with clean edges with minimal burr minimization techniques, these stone would seem to save me a lot of work setting back bevels with clean steel ready for a microbevel.

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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby can't freehand » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:21 pm

awa54 wrote:
Of all the water stones I own the King 6000 is probably my least liked, it's very soft and has never delivered an edge that I was satisfied with... and I have given it many tries ans used different techniques with it. In this class I far prefer a hard stone, my Japan Woodworker natural finishing stone gives way better results and for not so much extra cost. Neither worked worth a darn on ZDP though, the Spyderco fine ceramic has given far better results with that steel.
indeed, I now use the 6000 king only to polish and remove the burr prior to apexing on ceramic.

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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby awa54 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:25 pm

Cliff Stamp wrote:
awa54 wrote:
Of all the water stones I own the King 6000 is probably my least liked, it's very soft and has never delivered an edge that I was satisfied with... and I have given it many tries ans used different techniques with it.

One of the most unfortunate things about stones is the lack of discussion of the idea that it takes a very different set of properties to ideally grind an edge vs the apex.

A very soft and muddy stone like the King 6000 is good for setting the edge and preparing the apex, but it is very difficult to use to set the apex. Now you can do it sure, but a hard bond stone less friable is far easier to use.
The version I have is the two sided 1000/6000 combo, I love the King 1000, but as mentioned before, IMO the utility of the 6000 is limited. These get sold as a refine/finish combo for woodworking tools, but the truth is that the 6000 side isn't particularly good at that job either, even with trailing stroke grinding on high carbon steel the edges are poor compared to other stones in the same grit range and it dishes *very* quickly.
-David

still more knives than sharpening stones...

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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby sparky2016 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:19 pm

Fascinating, and thanks.

But since sharpening isn't a part of the hobby that's high on my list of things I enjoy (though I can see how it could be for some) - my conclusion is not to buy any more ZDP-189 blades, or other super-duper steels for that matter.

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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby Cliff Stamp » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:15 pm

awa54 wrote:
The version I have is the two sided 1000/6000 combo, I love the King 1000, but as mentioned before, IMO the utility of the 6000 is limited. These get sold as a refine/finish combo for woodworking tools, but the truth is that the 6000 side isn't particularly good at that job either, even with trailing stroke grinding on high carbon steel the edges are poor compared to other stones in the same grit range and it dishes *very* quickly.
The thing to realize with stones is that similar to other aspects with knives it isn't so much there is a good/bad as that there are particular applications. If you take a fillet knife and use it for general utility you can struggle, but it isn't because it is a bad knife, just that it is bad for that particular use.

A "soft" stone has a weak bond and breaks down quickly. These are meant to :

-grind very abrasive steels
-cut with very low pressure and speed
-produce a heavy slurry and produce minimal burr formation

If you are cutting a steel like S90V for example the very hard carbide can be harder than the abrasive in most stones. If you try to grind it with an India stone for example then the India stone will likely soon stop cutting and start burnishing. The bond strength is far too high for that application as grits won't release and they just wear, round and stop cutting.

A very soft stone like the 6000 king is designed to cut steels like M2, very large contact areas (so pressure is minimal) and to grind a small plateau on the very apex to provide high durability in chopping contacts, common for paring chisels for example. For other applications, like sharpening a chef's knife in a simple stainless steel, it works horribly as it is has the opposite set of properties desired.

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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby sal » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:18 pm

Hi Cliff,

Welcome back. Missed you.

Still want to discuss "our" knife with you?

sal

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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby N. Brian Huegel » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:13 am

sal wrote:Hi Cliff,

Welcome back. Missed you.

Still want to discuss "our" knife with you?

sal
Hi Cliff:

So what type of knife would you design with Spyderco? Steel? Details ... inquiring minds. Seems like it would be a beneficial project from many perspectives.

Thanks,

brian
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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby Cliff Stamp » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:53 am

N. Brian Huegel wrote: So what type of knife would you design with Spyderco?
I am thinking it would have at least a handle and a blade and the steel will contain a significant amount of iron.

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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby N. Brian Huegel » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:48 pm

Now you have established the parameters for discussion, deliberation, and decision. Of note: not many have been asked by Sal to design or develop a knife with them. You may be considered one of the privileged or cursed few.
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Re: ZDP-189 - choosing the right waterstone

Postby Cliff Stamp » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:48 pm

N. Brian Huegel wrote:Now you have established the parameters for discussion, deliberation, and decision.
I design knives all the time, for example right now I have two custom knives being made in S90V (stock 2.25 x 13.5 and 0.260" and 0.290") :

-partial tang
-edge is 0.025" before bevel
-full height grind, light convex (dual taper)

The blade shape will be tweaked a little depending on what the maker is thinking or also wants to experiment with. I have two very different HT protocols :

-one is maximum strength/wear resistance
-one is maximum toughness/corrosion resistance (the 0.290" one)

However commercial ventures are a different matter, I have been giving it some thought.


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