CTS-204P and ELMAX

[MacLaren]

Would it be fair to say that s30v prolly doesn't get the credit it deserves?
Spyderco uses a lot of it, and I'm inclined to believe they know their stuff.
Not saying it superior by any means. Just that it is a premium steel?

[Buendia518]

I can't really weigh in on the steel choice, I'm just here reading, but...
Surfingringo, this treetopping talk always amazes me. I know it's been poured over in other threads so sorry to ask again, but how are people able to get knives that sharp? Is this a big step beyond hair whittling? I guess it's a matter of slower and lighter because you're using the same stones as me. Maybe I've just stopped sharpening when a knife whittles hair, but please teach me!

For example I can get s30v to treetop leg hair off the flats of the mediums. 204p will cleanly shave but won't quite treetop off the mediums. It's an extremely subtle difference (and basically irrelevant to real world usage) but I can tell.

[elena86]

I have to agree with Surfgringo.Once again.So, it is going to be the Elmax variant.I allready have the M390 so geting the CTS-204P will be quite redundant.I only wish they release a Para2 in solid superblue.A dream knife ! I looove superblue.I have a Caly3 in solid superblue(in fact I have two :D ) and it performs and sharpens like a champ.Once I gave it to my wife to chop something in the kitchen and she was very happy with the superblue edge.In fact, for the first time she understood what "scarry sharp"means.

[RadioactiveSpyder]

I'm still a fan of the get both category. I EDC the 204P PM2 and can't rave more about the steel and the handle color! Elmax is a fine steel, but not in the M390/CTS-204P leagues but very good, and the foliage green is nice but Spyderco has used it quite a bit in the past. I remember reading threads where folks complained about every knife coming out in that color, similar to how we now complain about the (still) ubiquitous black G10. Dark forest green is reserved for a much more exclusive club: the Lil Temps, 2013 Spyderco forum Native 5, the Hossoms, and the recent Worker sprint to name a few. It's a color of royalty for Spyderco! The foliage green list is much longer... With a M390 in hand, I am somewhat surprised you would not get a similar uber steel if you could find one for a good price (and they must be out there for cheaper than what that Elmax one goes for ).

Ahhh, I love these tough choices! Both are great!!

[Surfingringo]

I can't really weigh in on the steel choice, I'm just here reading, but...
Surfingringo, this treetopping talk always amazes me. I know it's been poured over in other threads so sorry to ask again, but how are people able to get knives that sharp? Is this a big step beyond hair whittling? I guess it's a matter of slower and lighter because you're using the same stones as me. Maybe I've just stopped sharpening when a knife whittles hair, but please teach me!

Hi duke. All I really mean by the term is that it will "grab" the leg hair without actually touching the skin. An easier test of sharpness (and one I use quite often) is to very lightly touch the edge to the back of your hair as if you were going to comb with it. A very sharp knife should immediately bite and "grab" the hair. As far as getting there with the sharpmaker (or any stone) the key is to have a really perfect and clean apex. Everything else is really easy after you've got a good "burr free" bevel and apex. I do that work at 30 degrees and then put a very light microbevel with the flats of the medium rods. That's my favorite part of the process because that's where the knife goes from quite sharp to scary sharp in just a few super light passes. Angle and pressure become really important in the final stages.

That's my thoughts on the matter anyway. A lot of folks on here are know waaay more than I do.

Btw, careful with the "back of the hair" sharpness test. I went to my barber a few weeks after learning that trick and she gave me a mirror. It looked like someone had given a pair of scissors to a 3 year old! Haha...can't believe I walked around for weeks like that! As with sharpening, light pressure is key!! :rolleyes:

[Cliff Stamp]

Elmax unfortunately got hit with the S30V-chipping phenomena which is to say that when it came out it was used in less than ideal ways in less than ideal knives and thus now unfortunately has the image of a problematic steel. It is a high carbide/high wear stainless and has an above average attainable hardness (62-63 HRC) and can achieve a very high martensite formation through a strong secondary hardening cycle, or with a more involved low temperature cycle.

In regards to comparing high carbide steels, the differences in them when ideally hardened are actually much less than the differences you will see from blade to blade simply due to variances in heat treatment and other processing methods. In order to actually separate them you would need very controlled work and unless you are double blinding it or similar then the differences you see are likely to be in your head more than in the steel itself.

[Surfingringo]

.....then the differences you see are likely to be in your head more than in the steel itself.

This is probably much more true than many of us care to admit. :)

[mattman]

This is probably much more true than many of us care to admit. :)

What would we talk about?

[JNewell]

This is probably much more true than many of us care to admit. :)

Yep, and not just knives... :o :)

[Cheddarnut]

Yep, and not just knives... :o :)

My Locustco forum forks tines pierce just as good as a cheapo dollarstore fork.

[Surfingringo]

My Locustco forum forks tines pierce just as good as a cheapo dollarstore fork.

Well if you want such outlandish claims to be taken seriously you need to go out and buy a few hundred steaks and do some proper scientific poke testing!

[Sideshow8]

Check this out regarding CTS-204p.

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/Ca ... 204p.shtml

I have the Zero Tolerance with Emerson Wave, or the ZT0620CF with a CTS-204p blade, and I love it. Not only is it gorgeous (has some kind of rainbow hue going on with it), but it's tough as nails too. Don't listen to the guy who said he can't hold an edge with it, the edge retention is ridiculous, but takes some work to get hair popping sharp if it doesn't come like that. Mine didn't come that sharp and though it was sharp, I had to work at it a bit with a very fine Arkansas stone and a strop to get it shaving sharp. I also have a Paramilitary 2 with an S30V blade and got my wife a Paramilitary 2 with an S110V blade, and the difference there is noticeable too, the S110V is just much stronger and has to be sharpened less. Also, watch some "crazy Russian knife torture" videos (you'll know because he's usually in the snow doing it on some old wooden table you'd find in Leatherface's house. One is where he snaps an S30V Paramilitary 2 blade 3 different times in one test on one blade, almost down to the grips doing that stab and pry test. Not too promising. Good luck buddy, and I haven't heard much good about Elmax other than it's rust proof, seems like the poor man's CTS-204p to me though:)

[jdw]

I was under the impression that 'they' figured the heat treat out and that there was much more consistency in Elmax blades compared to when it was relatively new on production models?

[DrawBackwards]

I realize the OP question was about cts-204p and Elmax, and I haven't owned, handled, or used either because they're a bit more expensive (as sprints on the secondary market, or m390 at BBS). I got an s30v PM2 for my son, and later picked up an s110v PM2 for myself.

I think 'Gringo & MacLaren's point about touch-up's is a good one. If you don't mind touching up, there's little use in paying for the other steels. I personally like the feel of s110v quite a bit, and it holds a rough working edge longer than s30v without costing as much as Elmax or 204p would.

...but if you have a particularly strong g10 color preference, that might be your best bet. It's a great knife, whatever you choose.

[TomAiello]

I have to disagree with Gringo. I tend to let me knives go waaaay too long between sharpening, and the edge holding of 204 (or m390 or s110) is definitely worth the cost over s30v to me.

And maybe Elmax is all in the heat treat. I dunno. But one Elmax knife I own is my all time favorite--if I had to keep only one knife I'd get rid of all my Spyderco knives and everything else and keep just that one Elmax fixed blade.

[Zen]

Which of the three steel sorts has the best corrosion resistance ?

[TomAiello]

Which of the three steel sorts has the best corrosion resistance ?

I'd say Elmax, but they are all stainless.

[Zen]

Thanks :) I am also planing on buying an Elmax Spydie.
Corrosion resistance is one of the reasons I want an Elmax and also I read only good stuff about it.

[Raymond3]

I can't really weigh in on the steel choice, I'm just here reading, but...
Surfingringo, this treetopping talk always amazes me. I know it's been poured over in other threads so sorry to ask again, but how are people able to get knives that sharp? Is this a big step beyond hair whittling? I guess it's a matter of slower and lighter because you're using the same stones as me. Maybe I've just stopped sharpening when a knife whittles hair, but please teach me!

Hi duke. All I really mean by the term is that it will "grab" the leg hair without actually touching the skin. An easier test of sharpness (and one I use quite often) is to very lightly touch the edge to the back of your hair as if you were going to comb with it. A very sharp knife should immediately bite and "grab" the hair. As far as getting there with the sharpmaker (or any stone) the key is to have a really perfect and clean apex. Everything else is really easy after you've got a good "burr free" bevel and apex. I do that work at 30 degrees and then put a very light microbevel with the flats of the medium rods. That's my favorite part of the process because that's where the knife goes from quite sharp to scary sharp in just a few super light passes. Angle and pressure become really important in the final stages.

That's my thoughts on the matter anyway. A lot of folks on here are know waaay more than I do.

Btw, careful with the "back of the hair" sharpness test. I went to my barber a few weeks after learning that trick and she gave me a mirror. It looked like someone had given a pair of scissors to a 3 year old! Haha...can't believe I walked around for weeks like that! As with sharpening, light pressure is key!! :rolleyes:

Like many of us who sharpen and use a straight razor, over time, I've come to understand the difference between hair splitting and tree-topping. When hair splitting, the blade is cutting towards the hair follicle and can easily bite into the hair because it is cutting into the scales of the hair. When tree topping, even an extremely sharp edge will tend to slip off rather than bite because it is moving in the same direction as the hair scales. I shave my cheeks and neck area, but keep a beard. Straight razors that pass the HHT4-5 test may be great shavers, but require some extra work be sharp enough to tree-top the tips of my beard hairs, which is the trimming process that I use. One trick that I have come up with to reach that "well beyond" razor shaving sharp level is to finish stropping on the slick side of a piece of photo paper on a hard surface. That technique works well with both razors and knives. One down side for me is that once a razor is that sharp that it easily tree tops the tips of my beard hairs, for me it becomes to sharp to comfortably shave with.

Hope that helps with what you were asking.

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

I have M390 Para3 and PM2, as well as CTS204P and Elmax knives from Spyderco. CTS-204P Military and a Lionspy in Elmax. I also use a TRC bush-crafting knife in Elmax.

Go for the Elmax if you can afford it and break that M390 out of the safe then you are covered. M390 and CTS-204P are very close.

Elmax will sharpen easier and sharper than M390 or CTS-204P. Both of those steels work better with a toothier edge in my experience but will hold a "not as sharp edge" forever.

Depends on how much you like honing your blades and how sharp is sharp enough for your use they are all great quality steels. Honestly I find myself Ducking and Declaring I like VG-10 better than all of them at this point!

If Elmax is on your radar go for it!