passing on the Kiwi 4

[The Deacon]

Sorry yea I was off on the thickness of blade, I didn't pull out my caliper, I just noticed the stock was thicker on the Kiwi vs the Chap.

Interestingly, the chap has a very similar thickness in it's handle, if not identical?, yet it's screw together construction.

It's not a question of screws making a knife thicker, it's that using them on a midlock knife results in it needing to be wider/taller in order to accommodate them without compromising the strength of the lockbar and backspacer/spring carrier. As for the relative thickness of the Chaparral vs the Kiwi 4, you have to consider that the Kiwi 4 (and the Caly 3 and 3.5) "cheat" a bit there by using surface mounted pivot screws that stick out quite a bit. So, while the Kiwi 4 measures .338" across the G-10, it's .456" thick across the screw heads. OTOH, the Chaparral's CF handle is .345" thick, but the pivot is flush with the scales.

[nightburn]

Some images and a video:



Chap Vs Kiwi thickness


Size Comparison (Chaparral, Kiwi, Junior, PM2, Southard):


Short Video
[video=youtube;Yo4lNOqLQDM]https://youtu.be/Yo4lNOqLQDM[/video]

[twinboysdad]

sorry for the hijack Nightburn, but tell me about the mod on your Junior. Looks pointier than standard...

[nightburn]

sorry for the hijack Nightburn, but tell me about the mod on your Junior. Looks pointier than standard...

yup not going to hijack, pm sent.

[Blerv]

I think the use of pins being equated to a thinner knife is a myth. My Karahawk uses screws and is thinner than my Caly. There must be another reason Spyderco chooses one over the other.

I think "thinner" equates to handle height (edge to spine) rather than width (left scale to right scale). With a thick neck there is plenty of room to tap screws without impeding functionality. Maybe that's wrong tho. Shrug

[The Deacon]

I think the use of pins being equated to a thinner knife is a myth. My Karahawk uses screws and is thinner than my Caly. There must be another reason Spyderco chooses one over the other.

I did not say pins allow the knife to be thinner. What I said was that, because pins are thinner than screws they create smaller holes in the backspacer and lockbar.

The smaller diameter holes allow those parts to be narrower top to bottom without compromising their strength. That, in turn, allows the entire handle to be narrower top to bottom. Sal has said, more than once that the Caly 3 would have to be completely redesigned to use screws, and that doing so would change its ergonomics. Here's one of his posts on the subject.

Hi Scottymac,

Welcome to our forums.

Hey Knifeaddict, don't remember welcoming you before, so welcome. If I have, forgive me.

As to the pinning of knives, sometimes it's design requirements such as the Caly series, sometimes it's material as in Salts. In order to make the Caly with screws, I would have had to make some significant (to me) design adjustments to accomodate the larger size of the screws. I believe thoses changes would have diminished the design. The success or failure of a product is often in the design.

First is the concept, then the design, then the materials, then the quality of manufacture, then the price. I rarely bend on the first 4. If your values (priorities) put materials (screws) or manufacturing method (pins) ahead of design, my apologies for our differences.

sal

And sure, there are going to be all screw models that are narrower top to bottom than the Caly 3 and 3.5, but all that means is that those knives could have been even narrower top to bottom if the had been designed with pins instead of screws.

[Liquid Cobra]

I did not say pins allow the knife to be thinner. What I said was that, because pins are thinner than screws they create smaller holes in the backspacer and lockbar.

The smaller diameter holes allow those parts to be narrower top to bottom without compromising their strength. That, in turn, allows the entire handle to be narrower top to bottom. Sal has said, more than once that the Caly 3 would have to be completely redesigned to use screws, and that doing so would change its ergonomics. Here's one of his posts on the subject.



And sure, there are going to be all screw models that are narrower top to bottom than the Caly 3 and 3.5, but all that means is that those knives could have been even narrower top to bottom if the had been designed with pins instead of screws.

I'm pretty sure I stand corrected. Thanks for sharing Deacon. You too Blerv.

I absolutely love when Sal shares how he goes about making the decisions he does. I wish he would do so more often.

[anagarika]

Paul, Nightburn,

Thanks. Make me wanting one :)

[M80]

Pinned construction is a deal breaker for me.

[3rdGenRigger]

Pinned construction is a deal breaker for me.

My first Spyderco (Tragically lost on a job site), and second identical replacement were both the pinned FRN Native model...the one I still have (Second one) shrugged off a 275 foot fall onto gravel roughly 8-9 years ago (Knife was closed fortunately), and I still carry it from time to time today because it's still totally functional and still has no play in any direction. I prefer at least the option of an adjustable pivot, but it's far from a deal breaker for me...I thoroughly enjoy my OD Goddard which is also totally pinned. I'll include 2 pictures...first from about 275 feet (The distance my FRN Native fell), and another picture from about 275 feet where you can see the end of the handle of my OD Goddard sticking out of one of the pockets of my tool pouch. If you've never tried a pinned Spyderco, you might want to...they may not have adjustment capability, but the pivot pin is much less likely to come loose than a screw is, and as such it certainly isn't a deal breaker for me.

[nightburn]

My first Spyderco (Tragically lost on a job site), and second identical replacement were both the pinned FRN Native model...the one I still have (Second one) shrugged off a 275 foot fall onto gravel roughly 8-9 years ago (Knife was closed fortunately), and I still carry it from time to time today because it's still totally functional and still has no play in any direction. I prefer at least the option of an adjustable pivot, but it's far from a deal breaker for me...I thoroughly enjoy my OD Goddard which is also totally pinned. I'll include 2 pictures...first from about 275 feet (The distance my FRN Native fell), and another picture from about 275 feet where you can see the end of the handle of my OD Goddard sticking out of one of the pockets of my tool pouch. If you've never tried a pinned Spyderco, you might want to...they may not have adjustment capability, but the pivot pin is much less likely to come loose than a screw is, and as such it certainly isn't a deal breaker for me.

Nice pics, thx I'm dizzy now :rolleyes:

BTW, this knife does have an adjustable pivot and FRN is basically indestructible devil material.

~

For some of us it's not so much that pinned construction isn't durable or doesn't work equally well or even better, it's just the inability to do things like scale swaps. Some people are into that, some aren't.

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, sorry. At the end of the day I still really like this knife. If someone wants to do something like a scale swap it's still technically possible (the best kind of possible, right?), albeit considerably more difficult.

[paladin]

Pinned construction is a deal breaker for me.

My first Spyderco (Tragically lost on a job site), and second identical replacement were both the pinned FRN Native model...the one I still have (Second one) shrugged off a 275 foot fall onto gravel roughly 8-9 years ago (Knife was closed fortunately), and I still carry it from time to time today because it's still totally functional and still has no play in any direction. I prefer at least the option of an adjustable pivot, but it's far from a deal breaker for me...I thoroughly enjoy my OD Goddard which is also totally pinned. I'll include 2 pictures...first from about 275 feet (The distance my FRN Native fell), and another picture from about 275 feet where you can see the end of the handle of my OD Goddard sticking out of one of the pockets of my tool pouch. If you've never tried a pinned Spyderco, you might want to...they may not have adjustment capability, but the pivot pin is much less likely to come loose than a screw is, and as such it certainly isn't a deal breaker for me.

110% in agreement with the Rigger...

Don't let pinned construction break a deal...not many folks around here would kick a Caly Jr. out of their lineup just because of the pins...give one a spin they won't let you down in the performance arena...

Only disadvantage I can list for pinned construct is that it limits ELU scale customization & blade swapping...not always a bad thing, in and of itself :rolleyes: :spyder:

[SpyderNut]

110% in agreement with the Rigger...

Don't let pinned construction break a deal...not many folks around here would kick a Caly Jr. out of their lineup just because of the pins...give one a spin they won't let you down in the performance arena...

Only disadvantage I can list for pinned construct is that it limits ELU scale customization & blade swapping...not always a bad thing, in and of itself :rolleyes: :spyder:

Good point, Paladin. There are a few folks out there, however, who are brave enough to take apart the pinned models for purposes of modifications/customization. The only problem is the potential of breaking or damaging the original handle materials. (IIRC, I think MadRookie was one of the first to bust apart a new Manix CPM-S110V for a handle/blade swap).

[3rdGenRigger]

BTW, this knife does have an adjustable pivot and FRN is basically indestructible devil material.

Are you referring to the Kiwi or FRN Native? The Kiwi has an adjustable pivot, but isn't made of FRN, and if you're talking about the FRN Native I can assure you mine is pinned at the pivot and have many pictures proving said point...maybe they switched to an adjustable pivot in it (Mine's about 8 years old at this point), but that would be news to me and someone would definitely have to confirm that with pictures.

For some of us it's not so much that pinned construction isn't durable or doesn't work equally well or even better, it's just the inability to do things like scale swaps. Some people are into that, some aren't.

The Native 5 is a better candidate for new scales. I'll see if I can link an example, but new scales almost always work better on a knife that starts out with G10 scales with stainless liners and full screw construction (There are exceptions from some very ambitious and capable people but I'm speaking of the majority).

[paladin]

Good point, Paladin. There are a few folks out there, however, who are brave enough to take apart the pinned models for purposes of modifications/customization. The only problem is the potential of breaking or damaging the original handle materials. (IIRC, I think MadRookie was one of the first to bust apart a new Manix CPM-S110V for a handle/blade swap).

yup, point taken and a lot of innovation was advanced by MR...

so I was mainly speaking for myself cause while Rookie's making omelettes I'm left cracking eggs :p

Rivets protect me from myself

[xceptnl]

The subtle blade shape differences between the new version and the previous models really stands out to me and I am not sure how I feel about it. I wonder how long we will have to wait until we see a mod to mimic the older spine shape on the new model?

[paladin]

The Native 5 is a better candidate for new scales. I'll see if I can link an example, but new scales almost always work better on a knife that starts out with G10 scales with stainless liners and full screw construction (There are exceptions from some very ambitious and capable people but I'm speaking of the majority).

yes...and unless you are pretty handy and have the right tools & instruments custom nested liner scale retroengineering can be a real bear as Paul and others have pointed out before here...

Case in point...few want to tackle custom Para 2 scales...top flight guys like Putman & Cuscadi with CNC grade tooling are some of the few who can do it RIGHT...

[nightburn]

Are you referring to the Kiwi or FRN Native? The Kiwi has an adjustable pivot, but isn't made of FRN, and if you're talking about the FRN Native I can assure you mine is pinned at the pivot and have many pictures proving said point...maybe they switched to an adjustable pivot in it (Mine's about 8 years old at this point), but that would be news to me and someone would definitely have to confirm that with pictures.

I was referring to both in the same sentence.

The Native 5 is a better candidate for new scales. I'll see if I can link an example, but new scales almost always work better on a knife that starts out with G10 scales with stainless liners and full screw construction (There are exceptions from some very ambitious and capable people but I'm speaking of the majority).

Yes of course, screwed construction is better for scale swaps and that's the whole point I'm trying to make on why some people may not purchase the Kiwi 4. It's a bummer because the Kiwi does have stainless liners and g10 scales but it's pinned =/

[3rdGenRigger]

I was referring to both in the same sentence.

I was just wondering because I've never seen one with a screw pivot. When did the FRN become a screw pivot...anyone have a picture of one? If the brown KC exclusive has a screw pivot it will be different enough from my current version to warrant another look.

[3rdGenRigger]

This is a Native 5 done by the same guy that did the display scale and backspacer on my Schempp Tuff, and scales, sheath, and acid wash of my Swick3.