How does cruwear sharpen and what kind of edge does it take?

[Surfingringo]

Can anyone tell how this steel sharpens? I don't know much about steel composition but I can tell big differences in my daily use and sharpening. I like steels that take a really fine edge and hold their razor edge as long as possible. I am a big fan of carbon steels like superblue for this reason. I find it sharpens easier than s30v yet holds that tree topping edge longer. I use higher carbide steels with a lower grit finish for cleaning fish and game, but for most other stuff I enjoy steels like 1095 and superblue. I am curious about cruwear. I know it has edge retention on abrasive material that is similar to s30v (which I assume would be much better than superblue) but I'm curious how it responds to sharpening and how it holds it's razor edge.

Sometimes I think the great benefits of high wear resistance steels are wasted on me. I am pretty "fussy about sharp" so I never find myself using those steels to their limits. Sometimes I think I just prefer steels that are easier to keep razor sharp. I don't mind doing frequent touch ups. Ok, I'm rambling. What's the verdict on cruwear??

[Cliff Stamp]

What's the verdict on cruwear??

It is designed for almost the exact opposite set of properties that you said you desire " I like steels that take a really fine edge and hold their razor edge as long as possible. " .

[Surfingringo]

It is designed for almost the exact opposite set of properties that you said you desire " I like steels that take a really fine edge and hold their razor edge as long as possible. " .

Ok, thanks for the info Cliff.

[MacLaren]

It is designed for almost the exact opposite set of properties that you said you desire " I like steels that take a really fine edge and hold their razor edge as long as possible. " .

Based on what he does want, what steel would you recommend Cliff?

[senorsquare]

I was able to get what I would consider to be very sharp edges with CPM-Cruwear. It didn't stay razor sharp as long as some other steels, but it held a working edge quite nicely in my book. One thing I did like was how easy it was to maintain the edge. Even after a lot of use it seemed that it only took 4 or 5 swipes on the sharpmaker to get it back to shaving sharp.

[Surfingringo]

What I like about superblue is that even though it won't hold a working edge as long as something like s30v (I would imagine) it seems to hold that "razor edge" significantly longer. Obviously it depends on what you are cutting too. I'm sure if you start cutting highly abrasive materials that razor edge will disappear real quick. But for things like kitchen duty, chopping veggies and meat, I find sb will stay razor sharp longer.

I guess I was hoping to hear that cruwear would behave similarly but with better wear resistance. Oh well.

[captnvegtble]

What I like about superblue is that even though it won't hold a working edge as long as something like s30v (I would imagine) it seems to hold that "razor edge" significantly longer. Obviously it depends on what you are cutting too. I'm sure if you start cutting highly abrasive materials that razor edge will disappear real quick. But for things like kitchen duty, chopping veggies and meat, I find sb will stay razor sharp longer.

I guess I was hoping to hear that cruwear would behave similarly but with better wear resistance. Oh well.

I'm with you on there... I find myself constantly comparing steels to SuperBlue in terms of how fine of an edge they're able to take. I think SB might be my favorite steel so far.

[PayneTrain]

It is designed for almost the exact opposite set of properties that you said you desire " I like steels that take a really fine edge and hold their razor edge as long as possible. " .

Really? My observations are highly subjective, but based on the way my Cruwear Military slices through cardboard I was going to testify to the contrary. It was the sharpest knife I've received from the factory, and compared to other FFG blades I use it feels like it takes literally half the effort to perform the same cut. I attributed this to how fine of an edge it had, but I'm no master of sharpening so maybe I just haven't gotten my other blades to their full potential. Or the geometry of the Military is what is making all the difference.

The other thing is despite a fair amount of use (I switch knives almost daily), I haven't sharpened it yet and it still flies through cardboard like nothing else. That includes a Super Blue Ladybug (which needs retesting, I think I got a much better edge now), 204P PM2, S110V Manix, and a S30V Ritter Mini-Grip. I always thought it was the steel (especially vs the PM2), but perhaps they just ground that edge perfectly while none of the others have been quite as sharp as they could be. Or geometry. Or is it...?

[araneae]

Really? My observations are highly subjective, but based on the way my Cruwear Military slices through cardboard I was going to testify to the contrary. It was the sharpest knife I've received from the factory, and compared to other FFG blades I use it feels like it takes literally half the effort to perform the same cut. I attributed this to how fine of an edge it had, but I'm no master of sharpening so maybe I just haven't gotten my other blades to their full potential. Or the geometry of the Military is what is making all the difference.

The other thing is despite a fair amount of use (I switch knives almost daily), I haven't sharpened it yet and it still flies through cardboard like nothing else. That includes a Super Blue Ladybug (which needs retesting, I think I got a much better edge now), 204P PM2, S110V Manix, and a S30V Ritter Mini-Grip. I always thought it was the steel (especially vs the PM2), but perhaps they just ground that edge perfectly while none of the others have been quite as sharp as they could be. Or geometry. Or is it...?

If you want to evaluate steels and cutting performance you really need to compare the same model with different steels. Geometry will trump steel type if you are comparing a a Ladybug to a Millie- I think it would be impossible for a moderately sharp Ladybug to slice less well than a moderately sharp Millie. Steel doesn't make a knife sharper, its the blade and edge geometry. You may be thinking it cuts more easily because its a larger blade and you have more leverage with it.

[Popsickle]

based on what he wants I would say CPM-154 and CPM-M4. Im a huge fan of both when it comes to how sharp I can get them and how long they hold it.

[PayneTrain]

If you want to evaluate steels and cutting performance you really need to compare the same model with different steels. Geometry will trump steel type if you are comparing a a Ladybug to a Millie- I think it would be impossible for a moderately sharp Ladybug to slice less well than a moderately sharp Millie. Steel doesn't make a knife sharper, its the blade and edge geometry. You may be thinking it cuts more easily because its a larger blade and you have more leverage with it.

Indeed, though steel does determine how fine of an edge the knife can take and hold. I was really surprised at how much resistance I had with the Ladybug, being such a thin blade of the venerable Super Blue. Maybe it is the size of the Military, but I don't know. It's just such a night and day difference to everything else of how easily it moves through, it just has to be sharper. One would think the PM2 wouldn't be far behind with such a similar blade shape, but it is. I'm basically comparing factory edges on FFG blades here, which is about as scientific as I'm going to get, but I realize that still leaves lots of variables (factory edges being one of them!). So yeah, just my observations for you guys to chew on. I'll pass the salt.

[Cliff Stamp]

Based on what he does want, what steel would you recommend Cliff?

Nitrobe 77, AEB-L, W series tool steels, Japanese white steels and similar, essentially steels made for high sharpness cutting tools. There are actual steels designed for that just like there are steels designed for all kinds of tools.

It was the sharpest knife I've received from the factory, and compared to other FFG blades I use it feels like it takes literally half the effort to perform the same cut.

One of the most frequent questions I get is why does "X steel cut better than Y" when I ask for what this is based on it will typically be something similar to using a carbon Mora vs a stainless Mora and the stainless cuts better. There are any number of reasons why this can happen :

-the blade is thicker
-the edge has a different angle
-the edge is thicker
-the primary grind is higher
-the finish is different (mirror vs stone wash vs bead blast vs rusted/heavily scratched)
-the edge curvature is different
-the edge finish is different (coarse vs polished)

It is really non-trivial to compare steels and make a conclusion based just on the steel alone because any change in the knives can mean that what you see is that change not the steel. For example high carbide steels take longer and/or different abrasives to sharpen than low carbide steels. If you don't take this into account then the edge on high carbide steels can be left very rough because they were not polished by the finishing abrasives hence a lot of people will report that high carbide steels have "bite" yet all they are seeing is that the edge was left with a coarse finish.

In regards to Spyderco, as with any sharpening there will be variances. I have seen literally dozens of Spyderco's and measure the initial sharpness on all of them. The two highest sharpness values I have seen were on a VG-10 and ZDP-189 blade, but I would not attribute that to anything more than random chance.

[Ankerson]

I was able to get what I would consider to be very sharp edges with CPM-Cruwear. It didn't stay razor sharp as long as some other steels, but it held a working edge quite nicely in my book. One thing I did like was how easy it was to maintain the edge. Even after a lot of use it seemed that it only took 4 or 5 swipes on the sharpmaker to get it back to shaving sharp.

It's not really all that bad to deal with, seems to take a nice edge without too much real effort based on what I have experienced with it. :)

That's observations based on a custom fixed blade at 63 RC and a Military.

But then I use SIC and Ceramics to sharpen with so I don't really see much of a difference in the steels when sharpening.

[MacLaren]

Thanx Cliff! I had never heard of Nitrobe 77 or W series tool steels.

[PayneTrain]

Thanks for that Cliff, understood and much appreciated. But if I could, what is it about a steel that gives it that razor characteristic that gringo is looking for? I got the idea that generally, the fewer and smaller the carbides, the finer the edge will tend to be and stay. Cruwear doesn't seem to have a tremendous amount of carbides and isn't stainless (though not bad in that department, but the humidity here is finally starting to get to it), so I thought it would be a good candidate. That's also why I thought my Military had the advantage.

[Ankerson]

Thanks for that Cliff, understood and much appreciated. But if I could, what is it about a steel that gives it that razor characteristic that gringo is looking for? I got the idea that generally, the fewer and smaller the carbides, the finer the edge will tend to be and stay. Cruwear doesn't seem to have a tremendous amount of carbides and isn't stainless (though not bad in that department, but the humidity here is finally starting to get to it), so I thought it would be a good candidate. That's also why I thought my Military had the advantage.

Grain size has a lot to do with it, the finer grained steels will take a more refined edge in general terms so the PM steels would defiantly have the advantage here.

Although the more popular standard grade non PM steels like AEB-L and 52100 are used in making razor blades and straight razors as they are fine grained. The lower alloy steels are both cheaper and easier to maintain that razor blade edge than the higher carbide steels on what people typically use to sharpen razors with. Start trying to sharpen something like S30V on an Arkansas stone and one will have some serious issues typically as the ones people typically use are in the 10K to 30K range and then stropped to maintain.

[PayneTrain]

Grain size has a lot to do with it, the finer grained steels will take a more refined edge in general terms so the PM steels would defiantly have the advantage here.

Can that be predicted to any degree by looking at composition?

Sorry about all the questions, but these are just the minutiae of the art of knife making that interest me to no end.

[Ankerson]

Can that be predicted to any degree by looking at composition?

Sorry about all the questions, but these are just the minutiae of the art of knife making that interest me to no end.

In the non PM steels... yeah, the lower the alloy/carbide content the better usually.

The PM steels are fine grained due to the process.

[PayneTrain]

In the non PM steels... yeah, the lower the alloy/carbide content the better usually.

The PM steels are fine grained due to the process.

Roger that. So Cruwear, though a CPM steel in the case of my Military and the upcoming Manix, is indeed a little on the high side for carbide volume, putting it at a disadvantage as far as what gringo is looking for? Am I getting this?

I mean it is certainly higher compared to the steels mentioned as good examples of a razor edge steel, though I thought maybe it was still mild enough to be in the same ball park compared to things with lots of Cr, V, Mo, and such like the SXXV steels.

[captnvegtble]

In the non PM steels... yeah, the lower the alloy/carbide content the better usually.

The PM steels are fine grained due to the process.

What about SuperBlue? That's a non-PM steel and doesn't have a super high carbide content.