Flippers with CBBL or Compresion Lock

TomAiello · #1

Is there any chance we'll see a flipper with something that's not a liner or frame lock?

I noticed that Benchmade has an axis lock flipper.

Is there a technical reason there couldn't be a Spyderco CBBL (or comp lock) flipper?

I'd love to see something like a Manix Flipper. But I don't understand the technical issues enough to know if that's even possible. Could a flipper and a CBBL coexist in the same knife?

The Deacon · #2

TomAiello wrote:Is there any chance we'll see a flipper with something that's not a liner or frame lock?

I noticed that Benchmade has an axis lock flipper.

Is there a technical reason there couldn't be a Spyderco CBBL (or comp lock) flipper?

I'd love to see something like a Manix Flipper. But I don't understand the technical issues enough to know if that's even possible. Could a flipper and a CBBL coexist in the same knife?

I doubt a flipper BBL or CBBL would work. Unlike the Axis lock, which uses two springs mounted on the sides, where they wouldn't interfere with a flipper, the BBL and CBBL use a spring centered behind the ball. That doesn't really leave anywhere for the flipper to go. A flipper using the Blackie Collins Bolt Action lock might be more feasible, using a slot in the bolt. OTOH, I can't see any reason why a compression lock flipper would not be possible.

v8r · #3

Funny I was thinking about the same thing yesterday except with a comp lock. Throw a 3.5 inch or slightly larger wharncliff style blade and I'm in!

Chris_H · #4

Maybe a BBL or CBBL would work? The flipper would have to stay in front of the ball bearing though? Perhaps the ball bearing would ride along the edge of the flipper, meaning the flipper would have to have an arc -- might make a nice looking guard once the blade was deployed. However, I think that would mean a small notch and or ricasso area would have to be in front of the flipper so that the ball bearing wouldn't damage the blade edge when in the closed position.

I agree with Paul that a compression lock flipper model should be doable. Another bolt action lock knife would be nice too.

timlara · #5

Oooh....I like the idea of a bolt action flipper! Based on the feel of my Sage 3, it seems like the loose/smooth action of the lock would lend itself really well to the low-friction requirements of a flipper. I'm still not convinced that the ball-bearing washers in the current flippers are worth the machining complexity (raceways have to be a PERFECT fit, perfectly smooth, etc). To me the Sage 3 action feels much smoother and the mechanism seems a lot simpler to make.

TomAiello · #6

Bolt action or compression lock would be awesome, too. Especially if they are substantially easier to get working (and so could come to market sooner).

Janfrederik · #7

I don't see why you couldn't have a CBBL or BBL front flipper. The jimping might be a problem, but you could just have the middle smooth, with jimping on the edges.

TomAiello · #8

I'd like it for closing the knife easier.

I recently acquired a ZT0770CF which I'm really enjoying (it was my response to my desire to buy the Elmax PM2 combined with my distaste for BBS). It's even (probably temporarily) bumped my ZDP delica from my "light carry" pocket. The flipper motion on this thing is about 10 times better than my Southard (which I sold at a loss with appropriate disclosure to the buyer). But the liner lock is a big negative because it requires that I use 2 hands to close the knife. I find my Manix's (and PM2's) much easier/faster/more convenient to close. Basically, after a disappointing experience with the Southard, I finally discovered why people rave about flippers. So I started wondering if there was a way to combine both of these features in one knife.

I'd love to see a very smooth flipper (so the "speed safe" assist feature is unnecessary) that incorporated a CBBL or Comp Lock so I could easily swing it closed with one hand.

BTW, I'm now considering giving another Spyderco flipper a try. I really like the appearance of the Southard, but after my last experience I think I may want to check out the Domino or Dice.

Evil D · #9

Janfrederik wrote:I don't see why you couldn't have a CBBL or BBL front flipper. The jimping might be a problem, but you could just have the middle smooth, with jimping on the edges.

I'm not sure what a "front flipper" is?

Anyway the problem is that the flipper lever has to pass through the frame behind the pivot pin, and that's where the CBBL lives. It would somehow have to pass the lock ball and spring, which currently ride along the rounded tang on a Manix 2. There's no way you could add that flipper lever to the tang and it be able to pass by the lock. You would have to figure out a way to have the lever poke up through BEHIND the lock, which would put it way back 1/3 of the way down the spine of the handle. It would also end up being really long so you'd have a ridiculous guard.

As for compression lock I don't see any reason it couldn't be done.

Mjc1973 · #10

Turn the PM2's 50/50 choil into a flipper button. I believe the compression lock is perfect setup for a flipper.

RadioactiveSpyder · #11

Exactly what David said.

SolidState · #12

Comp locks can be made into flippers. The Szabo was originally slated to be a comp-flipper.
Stop locks can be made into flippers
Power locks, bbl and cbbl locks are not easy at all.

Back locks require some thought, but it can be done. The bolt lock can be done in a similar way.

Janfrederik · #13

Evil D wrote:I'm not sure what a "front flipper" is?

http://youtu.be/Qbn9rVJXUw8?t=1m17s

Able Dog · #14

There are 2 problems with the CBBL and BBL. The first being the large backspacer that is required for the lock mechanism, and the second would be the detent. I am not sure if the detent would be snappy enough for great flipping action. This is the problem with the BM 300SN's flipping action, it simply isn't a very snappy flipper.

A top flipper wouldn't work as an alternative, it would get in the way of the BBL as the blade rotates out. For the curious, an example of a top flipper is the Andre van Heerden M25. It has raised jimping on the tang that extends beyond the liner and scales when closed. You would quickly drag your index finger from the front to the back of the handle top, and the blade should flip out. Problem with the BBL is the ball bearing would run along the flipper jimping when the blade is opening. Now that I think of it, there should be a Spyderco-van Heerden collab cough cough.

A flipper compression lock is muuuuch simpler. There is no reason at all why the CL wouldn't work with a flipper tab.

Evil D · #15

Janfrederik wrote:http://youtu.be/Qbn9rVJXUw8?t=1m17s

Wouldn't make any difference at all. That jimping you use to flip the blade would still have to spin at least 180 degrees to open the blade, so it would contact the ball of the CBBL.

Maybe this will make it easier to understand. There just isn't anywhere on the tang that you could put a flipper lever. It would logically be somewhere around where the choil is, or in the case of the "front flipper" it would just be 1/4 of the way back around the tang, which would make it land right about where the ball locks into the tang.

Oh, and

9000 posts

RadioactiveSpyder · #16

Evil D wrote:Oh, and

9000 posts

Congratulations David! You've certainly been a big part of this forum. (I like your recent crop of animated GIFs too.). Stay sharp, Radioactive :)

Janfrederik · #17

Evil D wrote:Wouldn't make any difference at all. That jimping you use to flip the blade would still have to spin at least 180 degrees to open the blade, so it would contact the ball of the CBBL.

Maybe this will make it easier to understand. There just isn't anywhere on the tang that you could put a flipper lever. It would logically be somewhere around where the choil is, or in the case of the "front flipper" it would just be 1/4 of the way back around the tang, which would make it land right about where the ball locks into the tang.

You could easily have the front flipper area on the "top" of the tang. Looking at the picture, it would be between the finger groove and the notch cut out for lock engagement.

And, like I said, you could just have two rows (columns?) of jimping on the "sides" of the tang, so it would be smooth where the ball bearing makes contact with the tang.

Evil D · #18

Janfrederik wrote:You could easily have the front flipper area on the "top" of the tang. Looking at the picture, it would be between the finger groove and the notch cut out for lock engagement.

And, like I said, you could just have two rows (columns?) of jimping on the "sides" of the tang, so it would be smooth where the ball bearing makes contact with the tang.

By the time that spot you're talking about rotates around to the closed position, it's going to be on the bottom of the pivot, far away from where your finger can reach. That's nearly in the same spot a wave hook would be if the blade didn't have a thumb ramp and spyder hole. Not only that but it would have to be closer to the tip/end of the knife when closed, which it isn't. When closed that flat spot above the lock cutout is all the way around at the bottom of the handle/pivot. You'd have to wrap your finger all the way around the pivot to reach it. Not only that, it is completely hidden by the handle, so it would have to stick out far enough to get your finger on it, and if you did that I don't think it would pass the back spacer when it spins around.

Maybe if we started completely from scratch designing a totally different knife, and you redesigned the lock to accommodate all that, you might be able to work something out. You might be able to cut down the end of the back spacer that acts as a blade stop and use an internal stop pin like the Southard uses, that might make room for the front flipper deal to pass by.

Able Dog · #19

You could shorten the backspacer so that it ends just about even with the polymer cage, and then extend a flipper tab from the tang. The flipper would then be the part of the tang that makes contact with the spacer.

Changing the process this much simply to make an existing knife a flipper probably isn't very economical for Spyderco, if it has to be done I'd design an entirely new knife.

Or basically what Evil D said. :)

Evil D · #20

Able Dog wrote:You could shorten the backspacer so that it ends just about even with the polymer cage, and then extend a flipper tab from the tang. The flipper would then be the part of the tang that makes contact with the spacer.

Changing the process this much simply to make an existing knife a flipper probably isn't very economical for Spyderco, if it has to be done I'd design an entirely new knife.

Or basically what Evil D said. :)

I think you just described a wave hook.