Kahr Delica, I don't get it

[araneae]

Thanks MJ for the thorough explanation. I still won't be buying one but now I understand the pricing structure better. It seems it is Kahr's call on pricing.

[Ned]

I would like a black handled Salt 1 with a similar mod, I really like the larger opening hole, grind off half inch of blade, jimping, perhaps an acid stonewash; that would be an excellent project.

[jmh58]

I got it.. Came yesterday amd am liking it!! Nice stout blade for garage stuff.. Used it to cut open some blister pack and cut up some boxes..

NGK is awesome to deal with.. And they sent a little surprise too.. THANKS NGK!! John

[markg]

I actually like that knife, it looks "snazzy."

[stevekolt]

NGK is awesome to deal with.. And they sent a little surprise too.. THANKS NGK!! John

Agreed! Great folks to deal with!

[JNewell]

Agreed! Great folks to deal with!

Among the very best. I bought the last of their nicely-priced CC knives today. Was on the fence but the NGK price was close to a no-brainer.

[fifthprofession47]

I picked one of the Kahr Delicas up today for $65 over at New Graham Knives.

[nccole]

I picked one of the Kahr Delicas up today for $65 over at New Graham Knives.

they are now gone. I was going to pick up a blue one at that price. He must have been selling them at his cost or lower. That is a crazy price.

[dogrunner]

Mine arrived today, glad I did not wait. Love this shade of blue frn!
Overall impression - I bought another Delica... but wait, open it up and the blade is quite different. Very nice, handy shape, sharp!
____ make more! I want a tan one too (at the NGK price, though :) )

[c11642]

Guys I love this knife!!!!!! Once you know the history and its purpose the knife will be even more appealing. Mine is a dedicated law enforcement knife. If you like the Delica you will love this one. I'm gonna go broke trying to get all three.

[JNewell]

I got intrigued enough by the Janich Delica that I hunted down one of the Janich-modified Enduras (bottom knife in the pic below). It will be interesting to compare them when the Endura arrives.

[DougC-3]

If I had a backup super blue Endura, I would be tempted to make a super blue copy of the Jandura. It would be a pretty cool knife.

[Liquid Cobra]

My tan Kahr Arms Delica arrived today and it is very nice. The stonewash is everywhere, which I actually like. It is on the blade, the clip and all the hardware. I have a bit of up and down blade play but thats no big deal. The tan colour is perfect, I really wish we would see more of this colour from Spyderco. I like my knives black, and I like them tan!..and orange, and green, and blue etc lol. I'm not much for writing so here are some quick comparison shots with my orange delica.



Lock bar is stonewashed, attention to detail!









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[xceptnl]

Thanks for the comparisons Donovan. How are you liking the lack of jimping?

[Liquid Cobra]

Thanks for the comparisons Donovan. How are you liking the lack of jimping?

It's really weird lol. Really, really weird. I understand MJ's reasoning for excluding it and I don't mind that it's not there, but it certainly feels like I would have less control during heavy cutting. But, I haven't cut a thing with it yet so maybe I shouldn't say. It does look cleaner in my opinion.

[iyn]

As a Delica fan I like it. Great size for a utility blade.

[Starik]

Thanks to everyone for your discussion of the Kahr Delica4. If you're really interested in "getting it," it helps to understand the evolution of the design, the reasoning behind it, and the economics of multi-step distribution of a product.

The original inspiration for the knife came from one of my long-time MBC students, who works for a government agency in a federal building in D.C. As a federal employee, he is allowed to carry a folding knife with a blade no longer than 2.5 inches. After developing a sound set of MBC skills, he asked me which knife/knives I would recommend to fit that need. I took a hard look at all the knives that had 2.5-inch or less blades and did some live-blade MBC-style cutting with them. The problem was that their handles were to short to allow a decent combative grip and managing impact shock was scary. Also, since we always endeavor to train with what we carry, the fact that trainer versions were not commercially available was a negative.

When I developed the original Yojimbo almost 15 years ago, I purposely had a long handle (to fill the hand and for impact-weapon potential) and a short blade (3-inch--the blade length allowed by the FAA on aircraft during heightened security alerts during the pre-9/11 era). That concept wasn't new and is regularly seen on box cutters, razor knives, carving knives, scalpels, and many other tools. If you want to cut with maximum power and control, you need enough handle to grip securely. As such, comparing the Kahr Delica to any 2.5-inch-bladed folder with a short handle is missing the point.

After giving it some thought, I bought a Delica, fired up the belt grinder, and made my student a "snubby" Delica. Since the grinder was running, I also removed the jimping, which tempts people to brave their thumbs on the rear portion of the hump in a Saber grip. This not only weakens your grip, but is a recipe for pain if you make hard contact on a thrust. For casual utility work, jimping is fine. For defensive use, it's like sharp corners and edges on a handgun--it doesn't belong.

I sent the modified Delica to my student and he absolutely loved it. He could carry it legally at work and could train with a Delica trainer to ensure that his skills matched his tool of choice. In fact, his co-workers loved it too--primarily because it offered a full-sized handle on legal-to-carry blade. Soon, I was grinding more knives for them.

A couple of years later, I taught a class in New Hampshire that included a number of students who work in Boston, which has a municipal law that establishes a 2.5-inch blade length limit. The same question came up, so I pulled up a photo of the bobbed Delicas on my laptop and quickly had a sign-up sheet for about a dozen custom-ground knives.

A few months after that, I taught in Chicago. Same stupid law, same stupid blade length, same logical question, same practical answer. Once again, I had a sign-up sheet and had to buy more grinder belts.

The concept of the knife was valid and well received by people who trained in MBC and lived in areas where blade length was severely restricted.

The original idea for the Kahr knife started with Marc Galli, a Kahr Regional Sales Manager and another long-time MBC student. Kahr had been doing the standard branded-knife thing--take a stock product, laser engrave the logo, and call it good. Thanks to Marc's passion for knives and Kahr's desire to go beyond the standard industry approach, they asked me if it would be possible to do a truly unique knife that was exclusive to Kahr. We met at the SHOT show and kicked around a number of ideas before I mentioned the bobbed Delica story. Since Kahr's headquarters is not far from Boston, they immediately "got it." And since Kahr specializes in small, easy-to-carry personal defense tools, they felt the bobbed Delica was a perfect complement to the spirit of their core product line.

When I met with Justin Moon, the founder of the company, he mentioned that he would also like the knives to blend unobtrusively with the most common colors of clothing and asked about the possibility of colored handles. Specifically, he wanted black, khaki, and denim blue--ideally with matching clips and screws. Since a denim-colored handle was one of the original (but unrealized) design features of the first Yojimbo, I was stoked at the concept and Justin's insights. Sadly, our Japanese manufacturer couldn't effectively color match the clips and screws with any coating that offered long-wearing durability, so the "fall-back" option was a dull, non-reflective gray stonewash finish.

In case you're wondering how the Kahr Delica actually performs in cutting, I answered that question very definitively a couple of weekends ago at a seminar I taught in Costa Mesa, CA. To illustrate the cutting power of a small knife and the need to understand the actual destructive power of your carry blade, I used a Kahr Delica on a typical pork man target. It easily cut to the "bone," and confirmed that the Kahr Delica will do everything we need it to do as an effective personal defense tool for MBC-style tactics.

With regard to pricing, it's a matter of simple manufacturing economics. Manufacturers make stuff. They then have several options:

1. They can sell a bunch of product to distributors, ensuring that the margins on that sale allow them (the manufacturer) to profit enough to be a viable business. The distributors then sell to dealers, raising the price and taking a margin in the process.
2. The manufacturer can sell smaller quantities directly to dealers (who then sell to consumers, raising the price and taking a margin in the process).
3. The manufacturer can sell directly to consumers.

Spyderco does all three and tries extremely hard to respect the often competing dynamics they each require.

As a manufacturer, Kahr follows a similar set of dynamics for the products they make. However, when they purchase a product from another manufacturer (i.e. Spyderco), their cost of goods is automatically higher. Functionally, they have become a "master distributor" and added another tier to the structure.

In the days before the internet, this process worked well because all the levels in the hierarchy had substantial overhead. That overhead prevented them from taking tiny profit margins because they couldn't afford to. Today, the barrier of entry to do business is much lower. Online, a guy with a web site shipping product out of his basement can appear just as legit as a retail store with dozens of employees. The basement guy can sell at deep discounts and make tiny margins because his overhead is next to nothing. Larger business that provide better selection and better customer service have to pay for those costs somehow, so their margins--and their prices--are higher.

Kahr specifically wanted to hit a $100 MSRP on their knives to keep them affordable. That puts their retail price below that of a standard Delica; however, because they are functionally a master distributor, not a manufacturer, the dynamics of determining the ultimate "street price" will be different. Spyderco will not be selling these knives directly, so the sales "process" to the public, as well as the cascading process of determining the price at each tier, begins with Kahr.

I hope this explanation helps you understand both the intent and the pricing dynamics of these knives more clearly. Spyderco is honored that Kahr chose to work with us on this project and respect their decision to make truly unique branded knives rather than stock products engraved with a logo. For Delica fans, it also provides unique, collectible variants of one of Spyderco's most popular designs. For me, the denim version finally satisfies my longstanding quest for a jean-camouflaged handle. That's why it's my new left-side carry knife...

Stay safe,

Mike

Stay safe,

Mike

So you you collaborated with Spyderco and Khar arms so that your students could stab people with a Delica 4 in secure federal buildings in major cities. What are you, some kind of douchebag?

[bearfacedkiller]

Say what? :eek:

Oh yeah, welcome to the forum. :rolleyes:

What the ...

[SpyderNut]

:confused: ...I think I'm missing something. Starik, I think there has been a misunderstanding regarding Michael's design. Also, we refrain from using such inflamatory comments on the forum.

[SG89]

What's the deal with new members resurrecting old threads and posting things that violate the rules? I mean we were all new once but please wipe the mud off your shoes before you enter our house. Thanks.