Cardboard Cut-off! aka: rumble in the paper cage!

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
Cliff Stamp
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Postby Cliff Stamp » Thu May 29, 2014 5:45 am

tvenuto wrote:Did you mean: "and concluded that for him, without careful measurement he would not be confident in telling apart a difference"
No, that was the level of difference he would be confident in separating without careful and controlled use. I actually would assert that it is more difficult than even Steve suggested with that work because he was using a very controlled sample stock, in general you are not and when random materials can vary 10:1 it makes judging knives much harder than you would think. In order to do it you have to cut the same material in the same way, or just do a lot of work and be able to do some kind of averaging or similar to histogram work in your head. It can be done, but it is not without being prone to errors which is why for example if you ask carpenters you can get wildly different opinions on the same chisels or steel because all you are seeing in random variance.

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Postby razorsharp » Fri May 30, 2014 1:21 am

nccole wrote:I will report on Chris' work tonight :D He did a Southard for me. I sent my Southard out Thursday of last week, he got it Friday morning and should have it when I get home. Not bad! It doesn't hurt that we are about two hours apart. Price was reasonable imo. I will let you contact him to get a quote because he considers each individual knife and job.

From Chris:
"The Southard is done. I took it to around .010" behind the edge and took the spine from .155" to .115" right above the hole.
Should make a big difference. I could not get a good spine shot, but I have both faces for you."

His initial pics of my Southard before final sharpening:
Image
Image
That looks great. I "hack jobbed" my one to 0.003" behind the edge .... :) its got a 14-16 degree per side high polished microbevel.
Image

I guess this proves you don't have to be a professional and really good custom maker to do a regrind, you just have to know what you're doing.....(ref to post 20)

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Stuart Ackerman
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Postby Stuart Ackerman » Fri May 30, 2014 1:51 am

Yeah, look at professional boxing and what it has become... :confused:

I always enjoy Amateur Boxing for the skill and talent in pugilism...doing it because they love it... :)

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Jax
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Postby Jax » Fri May 30, 2014 1:59 am

Nice job Travis,that thing is badass.
I like the horizontal finish on the blade.
That thing must be a sweet slicer.

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razorsharp
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Postby razorsharp » Fri May 30, 2014 2:02 am

Jax wrote:Nice job Travis,that thing is badass.
I like the horizontal finish on the blade.
That thing must be a sweet slicer.
Items quiver in fear at the sight of it and cut themselves :eek:

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Jax
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Postby Jax » Fri May 30, 2014 2:17 am

Lol! Not far from the truth I am sure,
The thing Looks like it can split an atom.
That makes it a nuclear device,you might be required to put a biohazard symbol on it.
:)

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Postby Cliff Stamp » Fri May 30, 2014 8:45 am

In regards to the regrind/professional thing, the vast majority of Japanese knives are reground on the primary when they are sharpened and this is done by the people that use them, just regular dudes. There are lots of people who do this with all knives, Murray Carter for example does it to western knives. The finish on the primary is destroyed, logos are removed and the finish is left with just the shaping stone in many cases.

A lot of people are just interested in how the knife cuts, and don't regard it as jewelry. That being said, if you have the skill and time and inclination and you want to, there is no reason you can't make your knives pretty, it just don't do anything more than make them pretty but if that is important to you, its your time/money.

The primary grind gets pretty mangled in use anyway if you actually use the knife unless you always cut clean and non-abrasive materials. Some steels are more resistant than others, but even the hardest/HC of steels are softer than even mild abrasives which are common in cardboard, woods (not from a shop), and all used materials.

But hey, your life, your money. If having a knife look pretty is what matters to you then by all means pay someone to make it look pretty. But personally, if I want to spend time with a pretty thing I would be with my partner, not a pocket knife. Each to their own though.

Travis, nice work.

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Postby Cliff Stamp » Fri May 30, 2014 8:47 am

As an aside, Chris is doing another comparison of steels on cardboard (no alloy vs high allow carbide), he has done many already, results will be posted on the forum as usual.

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Postby wquiles » Fri May 30, 2014 9:01 am

Jax wrote:Nice job Travis,that thing is badass.
+1

Looks great!
Wanted: Superhawk - Found!

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Postby Evil D » Fri May 30, 2014 1:00 pm

Cliff Stamp wrote:In regards to the regrind/professional thing, the vast majority of Japanese knives are reground on the primary when they are sharpened and this is done by the people that use them, just regular dudes. There are lots of people who do this with all knives, Murray Carter for example does it to western knives. The finish on the primary is destroyed, logos are removed and the finish is left with just the shaping stone in many cases.

A lot of people are just interested in how the knife cuts, and don't regard it as jewelry. That being said, if you have the skill and time and inclination and you want to, there is no reason you can't make your knives pretty, it just don't do anything more than make them pretty but if that is important to you, its your time/money.

The primary grind gets pretty mangled in use anyway if you actually use the knife unless you always cut clean and non-abrasive materials. Some steels are more resistant than others, but even the hardest/HC of steels are softer than even mild abrasives which are common in cardboard, woods (not from a shop), and all used materials.

But hey, your life, your money. If having a knife look pretty is what matters to you then by all means pay someone to make it look pretty. But personally, if I want to spend time with a pretty thing I would be with my partner, not a pocket knife. Each to their own though.

Travis, nice work.

Yeah, beauty isn't necessary, but it sure as heck makes things more enjoyable. I don't know anyone who's ever said "man this blade looks too good, I'm gonna go scrape it back and forth on a brick to make it look like crap". I don't think doing a regrind and making it look good in the process takes any more skill than leaving it looking like crap, it's just a matter of giving a **** and making it happen. I would even go so far as to say a job done right is going to naturally be a job that ends up looking as good as it performs.

Beauty is a funny thing though. I've had my Mustang for almost 11 years. Since '09 it has been running a 400+ horsepower engine, but until '10 it was painted black primer and looked like trash, and so everyone treated it (and thus me) like trash. It didn't change the fact that the car ran like a raped ape. Then I got it painted, did absolutely nothing else to it, same engine same power output, and now people love it. It doesn't go any faster, but somehow it's a lot more fun to drive now.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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Postby Blerv » Fri May 30, 2014 1:17 pm

razorsharp wrote:I guess this proves you don't have to be a professional and really good custom maker to do a regrind, you just have to know what you're doing.....(ref to post 20)
Hey Travis, not sure if you were the one hinted at (but I'm not sure).

That said, you gotta admit your handy work is shoddy. I mean, look at this zero-bevel PXL...disgraceful. :p

Image
:spyder: Blake :spyder:

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Postby WorkingEdge » Fri May 30, 2014 2:11 pm

razorsharp wrote:Items quiver in fear at the sight of it and cut themselves :eek:
we need a sticky with best quotes in this forum!

Beautiful knife btw! Wish I had the skilz but I'll probably just mangle my Southard and start crying.

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Postby Cliff Stamp » Fri May 30, 2014 2:45 pm

Evil D wrote:Yeah, beauty isn't necessary, but it sure as heck makes things more enjoyable.
Yes, as noted some people like pretty knives, that is cool if is that is your thing, it isn't for everyone though and not wanting something to be pretty or making something so that it is pretty is a fairly silly way to say what is or isn't professional.

I own this knife from Des Horn :

Image
It is a "Bullet " shape named after the Japanese high speed train the shinkanzen.

The blade is 2mm Nitrobe-77 that has undergone a triple 1 hour 500℃ temper and four cryogenic quenches in liquid Nitrogen.

The liners are grade five Titanium (Ti6Al4V) and the indent ball is silicon nitride developed for the space programme. (93HRC)

the handles are the very rare and hard (7.5Moh) gemstone "Pietersite" from Namibia showing unexcelled chatoyance.

The bolsters are heat treated Stain resisting Damasteel.
I also own this knife from cKc knives :

Image

-O1 tool steel, 62 HRC, deep quench
-plain wood grip

Is one of these more professional maker than the other? Am I a more "professional" knife user when I use one more so than the other?

(I didn't buy the Horn one because of the bolster or handle, it was just the only knife he had with Nitrobe 77)


Here are a couple of knives used (and sharpened) by actual professionals in any sensible definition of the word :

Image

They are at least four and I believe closer to five generations old. Used and maintained by actual working professionals.

I learned how to sharpen from my grandfather who sharpened knives (and worked as) for carpenters, fisherman and woodsman. He was regarded well for his skill not only in using but also maintaining tools and did it for other people. Not once did I every hear him, or anyone one who asked him to restore a knife, axe, plane, etc. ever say "make it pretty". They were all very sharp though, cut very well and had the required durability.
I don't know anyone who's ever said "man this blade looks too good, I'm gonna go scrape it back and forth on a brick to make it look like crap".
Actually there is a growing movement of people who do this, there is even a name on it, go check it out on YT.

[video=youtube;Lcz52gz8sAs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcz52gz8sAs[/video]

Les Robertson used to be fond of saying when he bought his first custom knife from Walter Brend he thought it was too pretty to use so he stabbed it into the ground and scratched it up. I always thought that was fairly silly, why not just ask him to leave the finish with the shaping grit. I do that all the time and tell the people who make custom knives for me not to do any of that because it is a waste of time. But again, I buy them to use, no issues if someone else buys them for other reasons.
I don't think doing a regrind and making it look good in the process takes any more skill than leaving it looking like crap...
When I do regrinds I use a 36 grit Blaze belt, I do this because of the time. This leaves a very coarse finish, in order to make it finer you have to use additional belts which is time and cost. I don't do it because it has no performance advantage (I maintain the primary on benchstones when I sharpen).

I also don't blend in the plunge line. The reason I don't do this is because it again takes more time to cut the plunge lines, again, no performance difference, especially when you maintain the primary on benchstones.

Kyley (cKc) as just one example can however do the same grind that I would do, even faster and produce a finer finish with an actual decent plunge line, in the same amount of time or less than it takes me.

But he has :

-a way heavier/faster grinder
-much more experience
-not even comparable skill

The funny thing is though, even if I had his equipment and his skill/experience, I would still not use more than a very low grit belt because again, it has no practical advantage to me, nor for the people I do sharpening work for as they are just dudes who use knives for a living, they don't play with them. They cut fish and game, meats and vegetables, sods, and shingles, and gyproc, trim roots, etc. and yes the occasional rope and cardboard (often times all with the same knife).

They don't need pretty finishes, they just want sharp knives that cut well, are comfortable and secure in hand. Like I said, if you want pretty then buy pretty and pay for it. I can appreciate pretty things, but I would rather appreciate the prettyness of my partner than my pocket knife if I want to appreciate that quality and quite frankly, no knife than is made by anyone can even compare to them on their worst day. But its your life, spend your time and money as how it makes you happy.

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Jax
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Postby Jax » Fri May 30, 2014 7:22 pm

Ankerson wrote:Factory knives at factory specs so 15 degrees per side and around 400 grit.

Unless they were reground PROFESSIONALLY as in done right, by a good Custom knife maker, not a hack job down to around .010" behind the edge then one could lower it to 10 degrees per side.
Jim
You said 400 grit from the factories,I get the impression that there is another finishing step.
I would guess some sort of apex buffing as well,like say a paper wheel or loaded cotton wheel.
I notice some polishing at the apex and just behind it.
Like after the 400 belt,they increased the angle a little on a buffer.
If this is so,can you guess what the true edge finish is?

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Postby Ankerson » Fri May 30, 2014 7:40 pm

Jax wrote:Jim
You said 400 grit from the factories,I get the impression that there is another finishing step.
I would guess some sort of apex buffing as well,like say a paper wheel or loaded cotton wheel.
I notice some polishing at the apex and just behind it.
Like after the 400 belt,they increased the angle a little on a buffer.
If this is so,can you guess what the true edge finish is?
Not sure, I reprofiled mine right away almost right out of the box...


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