Does the Dark Blue S110V Manix 2 open up new possibilities? What are your ideas??

[xceptnl]

I think we may be looking into this way too hard. Good or not good I think is just an unfortunate result of the words people are choosing to describe how they like one thing over the other, when there's a lot more that goes into it than simply saying one thing is good and the other is not.

Someone may have a preference for M4 and say it's the best steel they've ever used, but then compared to H1, M4 really sucks when it comes to rust resistance.

If a person were to say that s110v is the best steel they've ever used, I don't think that means that s110v is better than ALL other steels. To me this simply means that the steel works better for them in combination with how they sharpen, how they use the knife, what degree they sharpen at, what grit, etc. It works best for them and their uses. I don't think it's unfair to say that particular properties found in some steels will perform better at certain tasks than others...consider the M4/H1 comparison.

A parallel example would be if I said a particular running shoe was the best running shoe I've ever worn. That doesn't mean it's the best running shoe anyone can get and that all other running shoes are inferior, it just means it fits my foot the best and works best for me. You may prefer a different running shoe because it fits your foot differently.

My point is, I don't think things are always as black and white as bad/good/better/best and then all others must be inferior. There's just too many variables to lump things into finite groups like that. However, depending on a person's sharpening ability and habits and how they use their knives, there will no doubt be a steel that works best for them. In my video, I said I've never used a steel that could cut those hard plastics like that, and for that I think it's the best steel I've ever used. That means it works best according to how I sharpen, what angle/grit/etc. Maybe there's something I don't know or another technique I've never used in sharpening something like 420J2 that would allow it to hold an edge as well after cutting things like that...all I know is that by comparison and by following the same sharpening techniques, no other steel I've ever used has held an edge this well through cutting material like that. In the end this steel seems to work with me in a better way than any other steel has.

I agree with what you are saying 100% David. It should be understood that all statements that quantify an items as good/great/better/best are in the opinion of the person making the statement and are solely based on that persons experiences. We all hope that each person would only post opinions based on actual use and first hand experience, but that is likely not the case for most persons. Input from other sources often contribute to determining a persons opinion or bias about a steel or knife. Everyone has a varying list of criteria that they would require to consider a game changer.

[Ankerson]

I agree with you on judging by one property. I have to watch what I am reading with Ankerson's results. He is testing only wear resistance. I haven't seen very good testing for toughness and abusive testing.

In the full tests I do some toughness testing, that's what the wood is for. :)

I don't however do any abuse testing anymore.

This Video covers the S110V MT-18 well I think.

[video=youtube;iY5g93EJcuU]https://youtu.be/iY5g93EJcuU[/video]



And the S110V Forum knife Photos












And the K390 MT Here.

[wrdwrght]

Another possibility is that someone new to Spyderco buying this particular bang-for-the-buck knife will feel no need to explore others, especially after viewing Evil D's video demonstration of the knife's toughness... Such are my early impressions of the S110V Manix2 Lightweight that came to my house this morning.

[Cliff Stamp]

Another possibility is that someone new to Spyderco buying this particular bang-for-the-buck knife will feel no need to explore others, especially after viewing Evil D's video demonstration of the knife's toughness...

That isn't a demonstration of toughness, it is one of strength and doesn't demonstrate strength beyond any similar ~60 HRC steel as would be expected.

[wrdwrght]

That isn't a demonstration of toughness, it is one of strength and doesn't demonstrate strength beyond any similar ~60 HRC steel as would be expected.

No question, Cliff. You are the Forum's scold, and I have been properly scolded.

[Cliff Stamp]

I think we may be looking into this way too hard. Good or not good I think is just an unfortunate result of the words people are choosing to describe how they like one thing over the other, when there's a lot more that goes into it than simply saying one thing is good and the other is not.

The frank reality is that people want to vastly over promote a product but then also want to avoid the direct consequence which is labeling other products as inferior because the former will be accepted but the latter will be challenged however they are the exact same statement.

Now there is a different between offering an opinion vs an objective statement. The former can not be refuted, the most that could be claimed it that it was not consistent with other statements. The real problem however is that people don't do this, they openly make the latter and this is a direct declaration of inferiority on products lacking the thing they are claiming which generates the good/superior/excellent performance.

My point is, I don't think things are always as black and white as bad/good/better/best and then all others must be inferior. There's just too many variables to lump things into finite groups like that.

Knives are very simple tools, lets not over exaggerate the difficulty of quantifying performance.

Now if you want to make a statement like :

"Well yes, S110V is a good steel as it has a high carbide volume and this is good for certain applications. However for other knives used in other ways it isn't necessary for a good steel and in fact it would make it a bad steel. Therefore in order to know if it is a good or bad choice you need to know what the knife is being used for and what is demanded of it."

Then that is different, but that isn't what is done now is it. How many posts can you find of that type of that have the promotional claims about S110V (or another other current branded steel) to note that it is bad/inferior depending on the situation and in fact something as simple as 1095 is vastly superior?

[RealKnifeUser]

Quantifying performance, as Cliff stated, is not nearly as complex as it seems. In my opinion, the majority of people either have no interest in real relative performance, or it's just too many seemingly meaningless numbers. The key is to be able to wrap your head around what the numbers really mean, rather than getting overwhelmed and not really thinking it through.

[Donut]

In the full tests I do some toughness testing, that's what the wood is for. :)

I don't however do any abuse testing anymore.

This Video covers the S110V MT-18 well I think.

In my head, I would think wood would be too soft to test the toughness. Then again, I don't know enough about toughness to support that assumption.

[Ankerson]

In my head, I would think wood would be too soft to test the toughness. Then again, I don't know enough about toughness to support that assumption.

You can take a good chunk out of the edge on wood if you stress it by popping (snapping) it out sideways, like I do in testing.

You can also snap the blade, I have done that before..... More than a few times over the years.

I don't use proper cutting technique on purpose in testing on wood to stress the edge, that's not keeping the spine inline with the edge......

[Evil D]

This is just where I guess I lack the experience then. What is a task that S110V would be a poor steel for? I mean aside from being used as a hammer head or axe or chisel, strictly speaking pocket knife use, what are some pocket knife tasks that it wouldn't be suited for? Maybe I'm under thinking this, but any steel that can cut those plastic bands without chipping, and still hold an amazing working edge that will still slice paper cleanly, should also be able to do the same to cardboard, packing tape, rope, wood, etc, and surely will be overkill for things like food prep. Seems to me that if you had a steel that will survive the harshest uses, then any use less harsh should be a walk in the park. That is of course assuming we aren't talking about taking the edge down to 10 degrees inclusive, in which case I would think that sharpening habits would have a greater impact on how the steel behaves than the properties of the steel itself. You could then argue that other steels behave better under those same sharpening habits, but then isn't that the exact opposite argument as saying that those other steels perform better under my sharpening habits?

So for example if I said S110V is the best steel to cut cardboard at when you sharpen it at 30 inclusive, and you said

No, 1095 is the best steel to cut cardboard at when sharpened at 10 inclusive...

Seems to me we're debating on something larger than the steel itself, since the difference in how they're sharpened is so different. Now, if we equal the playing field and take both steels down to 10 inclusive, then yeah maybe one is going to perform better than the other, but the same can be said if we take both steels up to 30 inclusive, still one is going to out perform the other. Then we go on to debate things like how many pounds it takes to make a cut and how long it can stay at that amount of force and on and on. In the end we're both just talking in circles. It still doesn't change the fact that no other steel I have ever sharpened, in the way that I sharpen, has performed as well as this steel has. There is an equal playing field in my own uses, that being that I sharpen all my knives in a similar fashion. Given that guideline, this particular steel seems pretty superior to me. What exactly do I have to do to find a use that this steel will be poor at? In a folding EDC type knife, which this is, it seems pretty limitless from my perspective. You would have to change the variables and consider this steel being used for something else like a large fixed blade that would see chopping or something that would push the toughness beyond what you would use this folding knife for, and to me that kind of argument is pretty meaningless since we're not talking about chopping fixed blades.

In the end, I just don't think people bother to add all those little extra comments like "man this new s110V Manix is so badass, it works for everything I need it for, oh except for if it were an axe head or chisel or drill bit or large fixed blade, then I guess it would suck".

[Donut]

From what I've been reading, toughness seems to be more like... if I hit a staple, what does the blade do? Chip, roll, or compress?

If your blade bends, like Jdavis (s35vn), or breaks, like nutnfancy (d2) or RS Travis (sm100), you have bigger problems.

Basically, the way I see it in my mind, high wear resistance is a harder steel, high toughness is a softer steel. Now, when you have carbides you have a two part steel, the carbides are hard and are floating in the softer base. It's like plastic mixed with sand or diamonds. Toughness would depend on how hard the plastic is and what happens when you stress the plastic.


Wouldn't the blade breaking mean the blade is too thin or the steel is brittle?

[Donut]

David, I think your experience with children is showing. :)

[RealKnifeUser]

Cliff has articles explaining things like edge stability, ease of sharpening, and other applicable things that would probably help clear up what makes a steel ideal for the task at hand. http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/articles/index.html

[Ankerson]

From what I've been reading, toughness seems to be more like... if I hit a staple, what does the blade do? Chip, roll, or compress?

If your blade bends, like Jdavis (s35vn), or breaks, like nutnfancy (d2) or RS Travis (sm100), you have bigger problems.

Basically, the way I see it in my mind, high wear resistance is a harder steel, high toughness is a softer steel. Now, when you have carbides you have a two part steel, the carbides are hard and are floating in the softer base. It's like plastic mixed with sand or diamonds. Toughness would depend on how hard the plastic is and what happens when you stress the plastic.


Wouldn't the blade breaking mean the blade is too thin or the steel is brittle?

Breaking the blade means that it was tasked too much for the use at hand, could be too thin for the job...

If the steel is brittle then that's poor HT or tempering.

Chip, roll or compress has to do with the HT and tempering process, edge geometry and finial hardness.

I would hope the edge would roll or compress instead of chip when it fails.

One really wants to stay away from those thick large staples with a knife edge in the 1st place though.

You can take a steel like 1095 for example that is usually at around 56 - 59 HRC and it will be pretty tough (Choppers etc) in general or take it up to 64 RC and it won't be as tough so it would chip out easier, and's the same steel....

The steel has to be HT and tempered for the knife and the intended or expected use, that's any steel.

[senorsquare]

This is just where I guess I lack the experience then. What is a task that S110V would be a poor steel for?

Just for curiosity sake, let's say a person wants a Manix 2 and has the choice of FFG S30V or S110V. Handle materials and sharpening abilities aside, what are some cutting and general usage tasks where we could say that S30V is superior to S110V and that is the knife they should purchase?

[Ankerson]

Just for curiosity sake, let's say a person wants a Manix 2 and has the choice of FFG S30V or S110V. Handle materials and sharpening abilities aside, what are some cutting and general usage tasks where we could say that S30V is superior to S110V and that is the knife they should purchase?

There really aren't any that I can think of...

Anything that can be done with S30V can be done with S110V from my own experiences in general with both steels.

[sal]

Quantifying performance in blade steel is far more complex than it might appear at first look. That's why there are so many smart people :p involved in doing it. The variables of material, geometry, heat treat, alloys, sharpening, test material, etc. are almost infinite.

We've done CATRA testing (abrasion resistance) on same steel, changing only geometries and heat treat alone, and it makes big difference in the edge retention performance.

sal

[Ankerson]

Quantifying performance in blade steel is far more complex than it might appear at first look. That's why there are so many smart people :p involved in doing it. The variables of material, geometry, heat treat, alloys, sharpening, test material, etc. are almost infinite.

We've done CATRA testing (abrasion resistance) on same steel, changing only geometries and heat treat alone, and it makes big difference in the edge retention performance.

sal

HI Sal,

Great post, thanks for ringing in. :)

Yeah, it can make HUGE differences defiantly.

[Donut]

I believe that using S110V for spreading Chunky Peanut Butter (Jif) will yield much lower results than S30V.

Someone prove me wrong! :)

[Ankerson]

I believe that using S110V for spreading Chunky Peanut Butter (Jif) will yield much lower results than S30V.

Someone prove me wrong! :)

Now that's funny. :D