Time for Lightweight FRN Para 2?

[zhyla]

I don't think FRNwith nested liners is the way to go. It's probably not going to be much cheaper. What they need to do is spin up the Tenacious factory on a cost reduced Para2 design. Imagine $50 Para2's to use and abuse and to give/recommend as a gateway knife.

[opusxpn]

Where can I get one of those

[Wdr65]

I'm mildly interested in this idea. I'm a big proponent of FRN and would rather have a Spyderco with it than with any other material. I'm not sure about a Para though. When I think of FRN I think of thinner knives than the Para. I'd probably buy one if its offered though. I do like my Para but I find G-10 to be a bit too smooth and generic for my tastes.

[phillipsted]

As far as weight goes, I would imagine that you could shave off only a few grams of weight. The Para2s are at 111g right now with G-10 scales and nested steel liners. If we use the Delica FRN and G-10 models as comparison, the FRN model is approximately 78% of the weight of the G-10 model.

This means a Lightweight Para2 would probably tip the scales at 87g - which puts it somewhere above the Delica, but lighter than the Endura in weight.

TedP

[MadRookie]

Nooooooooooo, the PM2 does not deserve to be dressed in rags.......

I would rather pay a premium for a PM2 in S110V with CF or titanium, but I will NEVER in the least even think of buying one in FRN.

:eek:

[nccole]

As far as weight goes, I would imagine that you could shave off only a few grams of weight. The Para2s are at 111g right now with G-10 scales and nested steel liners. If we use the Delica FRN and G-10 models as comparison, the FRN model is approximately 78% of the weight of the G-10 model.

This means a Lightweight Para2 would probably tip the scales at 87g - which puts it somewhere above the Delica, but lighter than the Endura in weight.

TedP

The Stretch is the best comparison. 95 grams/3.4 oz. If you forget the lock and blade shape (although not too different) the Stretch and Para 2 are very very similar. I would not want Spyderco spending time on that project personally. I love the weight of the Para 2, and would not want to compromise open design and G10. G10 is not really worlds heavier than FRN. The real weight savings would be if they did a liner-less setup (or mostly liner-less, there would need to be some steel around the lock like the Manix LW). They could still do that knife, but with G10. It would be more of a Military treatment with partial liners, which might not be a bad idea.

[senorsquare]

...The real weight savings would be if they did a liner-less setup (or mostly liner-less, there would need to be some steel around the lock like the Manix LW). They could still do that knife, but with G10. It would be more of a Military treatment with partial liners, which might not be a bad idea.

I think it would be a good idea. The non-lock side on the para 2 could be completely linerless G10 or CF as long as the material would be strong enough at the pivot area. The only liner necessary would be the leaf for the comp lock.

FRN on the Para 2 sounds to me like a waste of time and money. The para 2 is already a very light knife for it's size and the weight savings would negligible compared to the time and effort to engineer and produce an FRN model. It makes more sense on the Manix 2 where the LW version at 2.9oz. is just over 40% lighter than the 5oz. G10 model.

[Donut]

As far as weight goes, I would imagine that you could shave off only a few grams of weight. The Para2s are at 111g right now with G-10 scales and nested steel liners. If we use the Delica FRN and G-10 models as comparison, the FRN model is approximately 78% of the weight of the G-10 model.

This means a Lightweight Para2 would probably tip the scales at 87g - which puts it somewhere above the Delica, but lighter than the Endura in weight.

TedP

The funny thing about that comparison is that the G-10 version of the Delica had much larger liners than the FRN version. The Para already has minimal liners, so you're not going to save nearly as much of the weight... Not nearly as much as 22% is probably nothing.

[ZL1]

I'm not sure I'd buy a frn Para 2. The s110v manix is great but I do prefer g10 to frn and the Para 2 is already at a great price imo

[tvenuto]

I love FRN as a handle material...in the right design. So I definitely wouldn't call it "rags," I'm just not sure the PM2 design would play well with the FRN. As others have said, we don't see any flow-through designs in FRN. It's lower rigidity likely requires a back spacer, so it makes more sense with lock designs that also require one.

[Evil D]

I really don't think it would be any lighter, the scales are already milled out for the nested liners and weigh almost nothing. They couldn't do linerless like the Manix because the lock requires a liner just like a liner lock. Maybe they could make a lock insert or something that takes the place of the scale and then no liner on the other side. It made sense in the Manix which I think was close to 6oz, the Para 2 is already fairly light. If nothing else I think FRN scales might be cool just for the texture, but I would much rather see that money invested into 3D machining on G10 than put into FRN molds. Some of those ZT scales make me real jealous.

[tvenuto]

If nothing else I think FRN scales might be cool just for the texture, but I would much rather see that money invested into 3D machining on G10 than put into FRN molds.

+1 on this. It's my favorite thing about the PPT.

[nccole]

I really don't think it would be any lighter, the scales are already milled out for the nested liners and weigh almost nothing. They couldn't do linerless like the Manix because the lock requires a liner just like a liner lock. Maybe they could make a lock insert or something that takes the place of the scale and then no liner on the other side. It made sense in the Manix which I think was close to 6oz, the Para 2 is already fairly light. If nothing else I think FRN scales might be cool just for the texture, but I would much rather see that money invested into 3D machining on G10 than put into FRN molds. Some of those ZT scales make me real jealous.

Spyderco doesn't do a whole lot with fancy patterns that are not functional. Probably won't either. I do like some subtle patterns, but respect and desire function so much more I look past it. It can be too difficult or overly expensive either, I bought a Kershaw Scamp a long time ago, and it has a nice subtle machining in the G10. That plus a 3.5" 8Cr13MoV blade and a SS R.I.L. for $20 is/was a great deal. The Zulu and PPT are considered functional I am sure in the eyes of Spyderco and are what the collaborators of those knives wanted.

[wrdwrght]

I won't complain if the PM2's packaging remains as is. The only change I would advocate is new blade steels, and since Spyderco is already on board with that, I'm content to wait and see. But, like Holland, I'd be glad to see M4 sooner rather than later...

[tvenuto]

Spyderco doesn't do a whole lot with fancy patterns that are not functional.

Not to derail, but I must respectfully disagree. The current milled pattern offerings are actually purely aesthetic, not functional: stepped chap, stealth chap, fluted milie/native. The peel-ply G10 is certainly an easy and cost effective means of enhancing the grip, but it's not the only way. Milled features like the "Anso pattern" PPT/Zulu, or the ZT style 3D machining are also options that are maybe a bit fancier, but still functional.

I'm not against the aesthetic patterns; my Stealth chap is my classiest knife and I love it for what it is. It'd just be cool to have some different milled patterns like D mentioned.

[Evil D]

Spyderco doesn't do a whole lot with fancy patterns that are not functional. Probably won't either. I do like some subtle patterns, but respect and desire function so much more I look past it. It can be too difficult or overly expensive either, I bought a Kershaw Scamp a long time ago, and it has a nice subtle machining in the G10. That plus a 3.5" 8Cr13MoV blade and a SS R.I.L. for $20 is/was a great deal. The Zulu and PPT are considered functional I am sure in the eyes of Spyderco and are what the collaborators of those knives wanted.

I'm not talking about spyder designs and webs and lightning bolts, I'm talking about texture patterns that aid grip. It could be said that carbon fiber is completely non functional, at least in the sense that it offers absolutely no performance advantage over FRN or G10, in fact many would agree that it offers a decrease in performance at the expense of being fancy but Spyderco sure likes to use it. The patterns that ZT use in their G10 are definitely geared towards function, but just happen to add a little aesthetics as well, the same as with the pattern in FRN.

[CrimsonTideShooter]

The funny thing about that comparison is that the G-10 version of the Delica had much larger liners than the FRN version. The Para already has minimal liners, so you're not going to save nearly as much of the weight... Not nearly as much as 22% is probably nothing.

Well, in all fairness they could use partial liners like they have in the manic (which are THIN) and just use a backspacer for rigidity. The liners on the Para2 are fairly beefy. I think that would save a good bit of weight. The practicality of it is up for debate though.


I'd like to see a featherweight Para2 in frn or frcp. I'd buy one in a heartbeat, but I doubt it ever comes to fruition.

[Blerv]

I personally find FRN to be more comfortable simply because you can pop out sophisticated ergonomics easily and rapidly (ie without a grinder). It's less grippy to the touch but rounded and jagged where it is supposed to be.

Handle shape aside even comparing a large slab of bi-directional FRN like the Stretch to something fairly complex like the Zulu, I give the Stretch the nod for a handle that works better in the dark.

[JNewell]

The knife would still need enough steel on the lock side to provide strength, reliable locking and easy unlocking. You could redesign the knife to eliminate some of the liner/lock leaf on that side, but not all, and the FRN would have to provide adequate rigidity and strength for what was left after the locking side had gone on a diet. It's a bigger redesign than the LW Manix 2 was.

[nccole]

Not to derail, but I must respectfully disagree. The current milled pattern offerings are actually purely aesthetic, not functional: stepped chap, stealth chap, fluted milie/native. The peel-ply G10 is certainly an easy and cost effective means of enhancing the grip, but it's not the only way. Milled features like the "Anso pattern" PPT/Zulu, or the ZT style 3D machining are also options that are maybe a bit fancier, but still functional.

I'm not against the aesthetic patterns; my Stealth chap is my classiest knife and I love it for what it is. It'd just be cool to have some different milled patterns like D mentioned.

The Chap's are a different story for sure. I still say they aren't for aesthetics. I have seen Sal post it was more of a practice in pushing the limits as far as CNCing and Ti. The fluted ones are functional imo. Two things, one is to give traction and the other is reduce weight. I probably won't ever buy the regular Ti version, but might get the fluted just because its weight is reasonable imo. That is not to say that they disregard looks, but function is the number one design parameter.