Honestly, I'm always interested in learning new information, and my opinion changes with the facts. If someone could tell me a compelling reason for a hard use folder, or when they personally had to use one in a capacity that exceeded the strength of an Endura 4, I'd jump at the excuse for a new knife purchase.chuck_roxas45 wrote:It's one of those "if you don't get it, you never will" things...
Isn't the fact that some people want them compelling enough for you?mark greenman wrote:Honestly, I'm always interested in learning new information, and my opinion changes with the facts. If someone could tell me a compelling reason for a hard use folder, or when they personally had to use one in a capacity that exceeded the strength of an Endura 4, I'd jump at the excuse for a new knife purchase.
Baseline of Endura 4 strength:
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/endura_pe.html
Gold Grillz are a multimillion dollar business, with consistent consumer demand over the last decade, worn by both the poor and the extremely wealthy. Arguably more of them are being sold than hard use folders. I find them both equally compelling; I might even argue that the Gold Grillz are superior because they would allow you to reproduce with certain classes of women, which cannot be said for the hard use folders.chuck_roxas45 wrote:Isn't the fact that some people want them compelling enough for you?
Yup, it's always the "anti hard use" crowd that tries to be disingenuous and "ask" for a reason. Whatever reason is given, they try to shoot it down. If they can't imagine what a hard use knife is for, it's the failure of their imagination.Evil D wrote:Why? Because why not? I never understood why some people almost seem offended to this kind of idea. What is it about stepping outside the box that freaks people out so much? A long time ago someone came up with the idea of a folding knife and I bet everyone he knew called him crazy and gave him huge speeches about how fixed blades and pry bars made more sense, yet here we are today hundreds of years later still improving on that design. Why should we stop improving something just because something else can do the same thing? Again we would still be riding horses if we never looked into the possibility of taking things to the next level.
To which I would say, why should we stop at gleaming white teeth, when we could step outside of the box and cover them with gold?Evil D wrote:Why? Because why not? I never understood why some people almost seem offended to this kind of idea. What is it about stepping outside the box that freaks people out so much? A long time ago someone came up with the idea of a folding knife and I bet everyone he knew called him crazy and gave him huge speeches about how fixed blades and pry bars made more sense, yet here we are today hundreds of years later still improving on that design. Why should we stop improving something just because something else can do the same thing? Again we would still be riding horses if we never looked into the possibility of taking things to the next level.
To which I would say, a) I have yet to hear a reason for the hard use knife and b) the reason anyone would need to imagine a use for a hard use knife is because the benefit of such a device is imaginary, while it's drawbacks are all too real.chuck_roxas45 wrote:Yup, it's always the "anti hard use" crowd that tries to be disingenuous and "ask" for a reason. Whatever reason is given, they try to shoot it down. If they can't imagine what a hard use knife is for, it's the failure of their imagination.
mark greenman wrote:To which I would say, why should we stop at gleaming white teeth, when we could step outside of the box and cover them with gold?
The answer is, that's not really an improvement, it's a lateral side step that reduces the performance of the teeth, for a dubious goal of impressing people more.
The hard use folder follows a similar course. It's not an improvement on the folding knife if in order to achieve a theoretical increase in "hard useability" strength, actual weight is added and actual cutting performance is retracted.
To which I would say, a) I have yet to hear a reason for the hard use knife and b) the reason anyone would need to imagine a use for a hard use knife is because the benefit of such a device is imaginary, while it's drawbacks are all too real.
Mark's question is simply are you requesting it just for the sake of having the label or for a practical purpose, if it is the latter he doesn't see it. It is a perfectly valid question and is basically asking is this a grillz type tooth enhancement or is it a bridge.Evil D wrote:Why? Because why not?
I'm really struggling to make the connection between hard use folders and this gold grill thing you keep bringing up. That's not even apples to oranges it's like apples to clods of mud. A gold grill to a knife would be something like a gold slip on handle scale? Either way teeth still work in the exact same way with the grill as they do without so the comparison to hardbise knives makes no sense. Your comparison suggests that a hard use knife no longer performs as a knife and that's silly. I'm sure your rebuttal will be about slicing performance, to which I'll reply if you care that much you should only be carrying retractable blade utility knives with 1/32 thick blades. Oh they'd break too easily? So would you say a Ladybug is a hard use equivalent to an Exacto knife? Why is that acceptable when a harder use version of the next knife isn't?mark greenman wrote:To which I would say, why should we stop at gleaming white teeth, when we could step outside of the box and cover them with gold?
The answer is, that's not really an improvement, it's a lateral side step that reduces the performance of the teeth, for a dubious goal of impressing people more.
The hard use folder follows a similar course. It's not an improvement on the folding knife if in order to achieve a theoretical increase in "hard useability" strength, actual weight is added and actual cutting performance is retracted.
To which I would say, a) I have yet to hear a reason for the hard use knife and b) the reason anyone would need to imagine a use for a hard use knife is because the benefit of such a device is imaginary, while it's drawbacks are all too real.
Not me but this should be tough enough..Apophis wrote:I am really curious about this now and want to know more about how tough existing hard use knives are.
What are considered the strongest existing locks/frames? I assume ti framelocks are at or near the top, but I am fairly ignorant about rugged folders in general. I have been buying folders more based on blade shape, ergos, steel, etc...
How do folders usually fail in general? Is the pivot/lock always the weak link or will the blade snap first in some cases? Can a weak link be purposely engineered to fail first at a certain level of "abuse" and be easy repairable? For example, washers that give out under a certian load and cause a bunch of play, but are simple to replace and return the knife to it's previous strength, tolerances.
I'm genuinely looking for information on the utility of "hard use" folders, and in your last 4 posts you haven't offered any information on what they would be used for that exceeds the strength of existing folders. I'm still waiting for that information.chuck_roxas45 wrote:Let me get this straight, are you attacking our choices? It is obvious that you are not looking for information but rather that you are making your own reasons for not wanting such and such a folder and that you are trying to impose your preferences on us. If you search you could find the reasons given for hard use folders. Whether you accept such reasons and purposes is entirely up to you but your disingenuous attacks on the preferences of others is becoming obvious and your so called reason for asking is wearing thin.
Bottom line is, what the heck business is it of yours what kinds of knives we prefer? We don't impose our preferences on you, give us the same respect.
Evil D wrote:I'm really struggling to make the connection between hard use folders and this gold grill thing you keep bringing up. That's not even apples to oranges it's like apples to clods of mud. A gold grill to a knife would be something like a gold slip on handle scale? Either way teeth still work in the exact same way with the grill as they do without so the comparison to hardbise knives makes no sense.
The Grillz Analogy is deliberately absurd, in order to shine light on the absurdity of the argument that there is a logical purpose for something because it is popular. Teeth also do not perform was well wearing a gold grill - it's like eating with a mouth guard on - it reduces both the cutting performance of the teeth and provides a breeding ground for bacteria.
Your comparison suggests that a hard use knife no longer performs as a knife and that's silly. I'm sure your rebuttal will be about slicing performance, to which I'll reply if you care that much you should only be carrying retractable blade utility knives with 1/32 thick blades. Oh they'd break too easily? So would you say a Ladybug is a hard use equivalent to an Exacto knife? Why is that acceptable when a harder use version of the next knife isn't?
There's tradeoffs to be made with any tool, and my stance is that the very real tradeoffs of the hard use knife (increased weight, reduced cutting performance) do not justify the theoretical benefits of a "hard use" knife, given the strength of existing knives. Your razor blade analogy is actually perfect here - the increased strength of a folding knife over a box cutter is worth the trade off, as you can gain a huge amount of versatility with a folding knife over a box cutter, while retaining excellent cutting performance.
By comparison, the hard use folders currently in vogue do not offer that an increase in real world performance over existing folding knives, while offering a noticeable reduction in cutting performance through thick materials (actual hard use) and a serious increase in weight.
Given the strength shown by the 3.6oz Endura (200lb lock strength, decades of field proven use) I don't see the need to jump to a 6-8oz knife. For the extra ounces, there are far more effective tools that can be easily carried.
Anyway you want a reason, here's the best one. Because I want it. Simple as that.
That is the very best reason I've heard, and had that been the answer initially, then the argument would have been settled. If you want it because you want it, thats awesome. It's when I hear that hard use folders fill some "necessary" purpose that I'm skeptical.
Why do you need a multi tool when you have a whole box of individual tools?
Because a multitool fits in your pocket while a toolbox doesn't.
Why do you need a sports car when a Prius gets better mileage?
A sports car offers enhanced safety in windy roads, better freeway onramp speed, and better long term reliability because there is no battery to replace.
Why do you need different color shirts when they all just cover your body? Why do you cut or style your hair?
Societal norms affect your ability to thrive and reproduce.
You want an analogy? OK here's one. Hard use folders are to regular folders, as work boots are to walking shoes. Why do you need boots when shoes do the same thing as walking shoes? Maybe because your environment and use for it says so.
Based on the data, this doesn't seem like an appropriate analogy. These "regular use" folders that Spyderco has been making for the last 30 years have been tested all over the world - literally by the boots on the ground.
I would say the analogy would be that regular Spyderco's are work boots, and "hard use folders" are excessively thick soled boots that appeal to a certain demographic without offering any meaningful gain in utility, and an actual decrease in real world performance:
You can look at 3rd party information if you really want to know. I'm guessing you already know the arguments for a hard use knife as it has become obvious from the arguments that you have prepared.mark greenman wrote:I'm genuinely looking for information on the utility of "hard use" folders, and in your last 4 posts you haven't offered any information on what they would be used for that exceeds the strength of existing folders. I'm still waiting for that information.
By comparison, I've offered quite a bit of information on why they are not necessary, and how every currently suggested hard use task (prying and batoning) could be easily handled by smaller, more effective tools that weigh less than half of what a hard use folder typically weighs, and could easily be carried by anyone wearing pants.
There's plenty of additional 3rd party information showing that knives labeled "hard use" a) weigh significantly more than other knives and b) have reduced cutting performance. Meanwhile, there's plenty of evidence showing regular knives being used extremely hard, and remaining perfectly serviceable.
You've accused me of being disingenuous twice, but to quote Princess Bride, "I do not think that word means what you think it means." Disingenuous means "not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does." If anything, I've been too sincere in expressing my beliefs.
Dude, I just looked up the Wildsteer WX, and that thing is full on beast mode. And prying arrows out of trees is a unique, hard use application that couldn't be easily accomplished with a keychain prybar or SAK due to the sharp tip required to pierce the wood. So this is at least one documented case for a sharpened prybar.Evil D wrote:OK...so the point of this was mainly to talk about the potential of a pivot design that would flex before it breaks and a lock design that could adjust along with it to compensate. We've lost sight of that.
My thing with hard use folders is that 1) I love the engineering that goes into anything built to resist breaking, whether it's car engine parts or knives. I've always been the type to ask why not when people say why. Of course there are trade offs...a knife that excels at slicing is at a far end of a spectrum while the hard use blade you can pry a door off the hinges with lives on the other end of that same spectrum. 2) I just enjoy exploring the limits of things. I don't have a need to drag race other than the enjoyment I get out of it. If you ask a road course guy he would tell you that drag racing is too focused on going in a straight line and what's the point, while others think it's as easy as standing on the gas and pointing the car in one direction but that's far from the truth.
I own a Wildsteer WX folder. It was designed as a tool for bow hunters to use for prying broad head arrows out of trees. It's a folder that was actually designed to pry with, at the pivot no less. It is a ridiculous tank of a knife, it weighs something like 10oz, isn't the most ergonomic and doesn't slice as well as a Caly 3. All that aside, it's still a folder, it has a marvelous lock design that is crazy and unique, and it's honestly kind of a pain in the *** to use BUT I still enjoy it, maybe if for no other reason than morbid curiosity. I've chopped, batoned, pryed, stabbed, you name it with this thing and it still locks up like a vault door. It isn't something I'd EDC, but then neither is a shotgun and I have plenty of fun with those too lol.
