Can a strop replace using a Sharpmaker or another sharpener?

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shu
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#21

Post by shu »

A piece of leather with honing compound will sharpen a knife.

Having done both I would rather reprofile a blade with a strop (like the one I linked above) and several grades of sandpaper than a Sharpmaker with diamond rods.

A belt sander is even faster but you best have a steady hand.
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Evil D
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#22

Post by Evil D »

jackknifeh wrote:Evil, you talk too much. :)

Jack

LOL Jack I'm just over this subject. I get sucked into the argument every time it comes up, and it's just not worth it anymore.
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jackknifeh
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#23

Post by jackknifeh »

bearfacedkiller wrote:I have been under the impression that if there is compound on your strop that you are not actually stropping but rather sharpening. If there is an abrasive of any kind on there you are still removing metal which is sharpening. A bare piece of leather is stropping and that is just realigning the edge. There is a lot of grey area in this topic and it produces a lot of confusion. I am no expert. :-)
The way I understand the phrase "realigning the edge" is that a burr can be straightened out straight making the edge very sharp. This is true, however this straightened out burr is very weak steel and will snap off under the lightest of use resulting in POOR edge retention. NEVER straighten a burr. You always want to remove it. Grind it down instead of move it. More to this but Ihave to go. Others can explian or Iwill when I get back.

Jack
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#24

Post by Mallus »

When you already have apexed the edge, edge trailing strokes are very prone to weakening the very apex. Take a paper clip and bend it back and fort to see the effect in macroscopic scale - It'll get weaker and weaker and eventually break. Stropping falls with a thump into this category as to do it in the first place you'll either be straightening a roll in the edge or a burr.

I've found Cliff's method where you first destress the edge by cutting off the weakened metal and then try and apex it following the disappearance of reflected light from the apex works very well and results in improved edge retention. Shaping the bevels can be done rather fast if you are not too worried about scrathes, and only the actual apexing with burr minimization requires carefull attention. Some steels are easier than other to apex, but arm hair shaving sharpness is usually easily attainable freehand. So, in my view stropping, while it often will yield high sharpness, is not the best route go take if you want that sharpness to last. Its a bit like building a house on muddy soil without a proper foundation or, like we Finns like to say, peeing into your pants when you are freezing - fast and easy solutions to your immediate problems may not feel so good long term.
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dbcad
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#25

Post by dbcad »

I respectfully kind of disagree with Mallus :eek:

Steels aside the ultimate "worth" of any edge comes from the user depending on their needs and preferences. If you need a good sharp edge that will keep with harder use the right angle should be chosen and a strop shouldn't enter into the equation.

For someone who just wants to touch up, straighten an edge a little after light use a strop is a great option :)

As always it's all about what and how you're cutting and what your expectations are from the edge ;)
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jackknifeh
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#26

Post by jackknifeh »

Mallus wrote:When you already have apexed the edge, edge trailing strokes are very prone to weakening the very apex. Take a paper clip and bend it back and fort to see the effect in macroscopic scale - It'll get weaker and weaker and eventually break. Stropping falls with a thump into this category as to do it in the first place you'll either be straightening a roll in the edge or a burr.

This issue is the one I referred to as "aligning the edge". Probably the worst thing you can do to an edge if you need any decent edge retention at all. The GOAL IS to have absolutely no burr after you have used a stone. Absolutely no burr is the goal but as in a lot of things 100% is a bit unachievable. But using push strokes on a stone is the best way to sharpen an edge to the best of your ability. If you sharpen your knives until they are sharp and stop there you may not be able to develop any exceptional skill IMO. You will become a very adequate knife sharpener but the super sharp hair whittling edges will more than likely be out of your grasp. I'm speaking for myself here because I seldom catch on to anything quickly. But, IMO, if you want to become a great sharpener you need to sharpen every knife you can get your hands on, then dull it and do it again. If you have the time I'd suggest one hour of practicing, then another hour later in the day. I've put way more time than that into learning to sharpen in the past year but I'm retired and can do pretty much what Iwant with my time. Also, the thought of "stropping" automatically brings to mind a leather strop and trailing strokes. Actually anything can be a strop, even the stones you use. Just use trailing strokes. Also, the main reason for using trailing strokes when using a leather strop is because push strokes will just cut the leather. IMO trailing strokes on the edge are not harmful IF THE BURR HAS ALREADY BEEN REMOVED or is removed by the stropping action. Stropping a good strong apex can result in that little bit extra sharpness that we love. Is this "little bit extra" needed? Most of the time, no, but it sure is nice when we can get it. :) Again, these are just my feelings and opinions at the moment. My "opinions" have changed many times over time due to more experience but I'm not among those who are very experienced. Still learning big time. A lot of what happens to an edge when sharpening is only revealed by magnification. The only place I've seen an edge magnified higher than 60x is in pictures. My strongest loupe is 60x and it's a very inexpensive one so I'm not real sure how accurate it is.

I've found Cliff's method where you first destress the edge by cutting off the weakened metal and then try and apex it following the disappearance of reflected light from the apex works very well and results in improved edge retention. Shaping the bevels can be done rather fast if you are not too worried about scrathes, and only the actual apexing with burr minimization requires carefull attention. Some steels are easier than other to apex, but arm hair shaving sharpness is usually easily attainable freehand. So, in my view stropping, while it often will yield high sharpness, is not the best route go take if you want that sharpness to last. Its a bit like building a house on muddy soil without a proper foundation or, like we Finns like to say, peeing into your pants when you are freezing - fast and easy solutions to your immediate problems may not feel so good long term.

Cliff's posts, which are hard for me to understand because of his extreme knowledge of steel compared to my almost complete lack of knowledge, have been a major influence in my growth and opinions now about sharpening a knife. Destressing the edge is a piece of knowledge that is invaluable I think. By doing this you are starting over on an edge rather than trying to "repair" a dull or damaged edge. He would say that stropping is not necessary because sharpening an edge is just about removing steel in the correct amount from the correct places. That's not a quote. It's a very basic sentence stating my understanding of what Cliff has said (I think :) ). Either way, I believe this to be true. However, I think the need for a strop will be decided upon based on the ability of the person when using stones. When a person is getting started sharpening and is able to get his edges to shave arm hair in 2 or 3 passes by using stones he/she can use a strop to get the edge capable of shaving in one pass. My opinion. This is based on my experience. Many months ago I couldn't get an edge sharp enough to pop the hairs off my arm in one pass unless I used a strop. Now I can get the arm completely bald in one pass after using only stones. Then if Iwant to I can refine or smooth the edge a little more by using a strop with abrasive sprays under 1 micron. This additional sharpness is obvious as I test the edge by slicing phone book paper but during the day and using a knife Icouldn't tell if I stopped working on it after a Spyderco fine or UF stone or if I also used a .5 micron strop. The amount of difference is hart to see or feel when opening boxes, whittling, opening you phone bill, etc. :) Also (this is important), it depends on the ability of the person performing the stropping. The two most important things IMO are to keep the angle as close to the same as it is after using stones as you can and to use very light pressure. When using very light pressure the chance of straightening a burr is less likely. I think using a strop properly can "remove" a burr by grinding it down to the apex instead of bending it out straight.


To the OP. I apologize for getting into this more than necessary to answer your question. I think you should get an inexpensive strop and try it for yourself and see how it effects the edge. One very basic way to state one argument is that while sharpness is increased by stropping it may reduce edge retention. By NOT stropping your edge may not be quite as sharp but will maintain the sharpness longer. I consider this argument to be basically true when the stropping is not done properly. Stropping is a skill just like using stones is a skill.

Jack
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jackknifeh
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#27

Post by jackknifeh »

I hate to say it but I'd like to add another bit of info that may save people some money. I don't know this for certain but this is what I believe with all my heart. BUying finer grit tools (stones or strops) will not give people sharper edges until their skill is high enough to get what the tools are capable of out of them. My experience: All my life I had two stones. A medium and a fine grit Arkansas stone. I could get the edge very sharp with the medium grit but when I used the fine grit stone I either would see no difference in the edge or I would often make the edge duller. First of all, just because you are using a finer grit tool doesn't mean you will get the edge "sharper". You will get the edge smoother rather than leaving the edghe toothier. Anyway, due to my lack of skill I was not capable of getting the fine grit stone to do me any good at all. Ididn't think it was my skill level though. Now I realize it was my lack of skill that made it hard to benefit from the finer grit stone. Another example: A year or two ago I bought some 1 micron, some .5 micron and some .25 micron sprays. I applied all three to strops and used them. I got great results from the 1 micron boron carbide but the .5 and .25 micron strops were almost useless. I couldn't tell any difference in the edges. Then after many months I decided to try the .25 micron strop again. I was amazed at the results. The edge sliced significantly easier through phone book paper than it did after using the 1 micron strop. The only thing I can figure is that after all the practicing my skill had improved and now Icould get results from the finer grit strops. So,,, anyone getting started can save their money on really fine grit stropping compounds. And in truth the edges attainable using finer grits than 1 micron are just for fun anyway. They won't get the knife to perform better than it will after a 1 micron strop or even coarser grits. The most important thing in getting really sharp edges is skill. The tools are important but skill is hands down more important IMO. Practice, practice, practice. The amount of practice will be determined by how skilled you want to get, just like any other skill. I'll shut up now.

Jack
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