Clarity on the C81CFPE2 – Para Military 2 Carbon Fiber CPM 154/CPM S90V

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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Surfingringo
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Postby Surfingringo » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:30 am

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Cliff Stamp
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Postby Cliff Stamp » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:30 am

Kai/Zero Tolerance has done a number of clads/laminate construction knives which to be frank have obvious appeal to the public as the steels used have both a high brand and the way they join them often produces striking visual lines. However they have been open that aesthetics is their key concern and that the HT of the edge steel had to be adjusted to compensate for that (they use copper joints).

It is unfortunate that Spyderco is using a clad which has none of the advantages of the reason that clads were/are used and in fact is even more expensive (?) than a solid steel. Clads were typically used to :

-allow the primary grind to be maintained thus they were very high grindability steels
-severely reduce the cost as the clad steels were very inexpensive
-the clad was chosen for extreme toughness and plastic range making the knife almost impossible to break even in abusive situations

This clad doesn't seem at all to fit with the Spyderco line of wanting to be the knife used in hand not sitting in a safe :

" There are some considerations besides function in getting a product to market. The clad had to be in process or in inventory for the experiment to take place. The marketing of 154 CM has been around a long time. There is some synergy between the clad and core. Because of the CPM process the 154 is very nice to work and grind. It polishes very well, better than most stainless knife steels. This laminate should out perform many of it steel competitors for their given applications. This stuff is cool and it is pretty. When you look at Halle Berry do you wonder how fast she runs 100 yards?"

Ref : http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthre ... post834564

There are lots of companies which leverage fads, which make cool/gimmick knives, I don't see it as a positive that Spyderco is moving into that area - however I can understand there is money to be made, just unfortunately they can't do that by focusing on high quality working tools with real and practical advantages to the consumer.

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Blerv
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Postby Blerv » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:22 am

Don't you think this clad would cut down on the scratch marks though?

Perhaps a silly exercise for the pragmatists but more attractive for the 90%+ of the fondlers of such knives.
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Postby FCM415 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:33 am

Blerv wrote:Don't you think this clad would cut down on the scratch marks though?

Perhaps a silly exercise for the pragmatists but more attractive for the 90%+ of the fondlers of such knives.
Isnt S90v expensive enough already though? For that much higher cost, the only physical advantage is scratch marks? I have s90v blades and scratching isnt more of an issue compared to other steels. Im a CPM154 fan but it scratches also. I recall someone in the defunct ZT forum on BF took offense when I pointed out that the composite innovation I can do without since it appears to be purely aesthetic. His argument couldnt include any real advantage for the user. I'd still like to have this one because its a PM2. Choosing this platform as the first model to have it is wise.
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Postby Cliff Stamp » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:35 am

Blerv wrote:Don't you think this clad would cut down on the scratch marks though?

Over the traditional clads, yes of course but just look at what you have done, you have given up all the functional of clads for the aesthetics. I can appreciate that there is a market for that, I can appreciate how some people look a the copper join in the ZT knives and could not care less how it forces a reduction in the HT temperatures - however I do not see it as a positive that Spyderco is moving away from functional based choices, there are enough knives out there which fill those markets.

Again though in case it isn't obvious, this is just my preference on knives, I don't buy/carry knives because they are pretty, and can appreciate that other people do, their money, their knives. There just are not a lot of manufacturers who are performance based and it isn't a positive (to me) to see one which has move towards it and it certainly doesn't fit with the knife in hand tag line.

This is what Spyderco means to me :

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The knife which you carry because it is :

-dependable
-functional
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with a constantly evolving and innovative design focused on functional and performance.

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Postby akaAK » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:40 am

How about we let spyderco make what they want. It's their pocket that will take the hit if they don't sell. Based onthis thread, that will not be an issue.

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Postby jalcon » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:43 am

You can buy one of these RIGHT NOW on gpknives.com...had it in my cart, all I had to do was hit confirm...then I thought wait, im about to spend almost $500 for a knife. I clicked the X, lol.

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Postby jalcon » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:45 am

nm sold out now

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Postby Syncharmony » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:01 am

Cliff Stamp wrote:however I do not see it as a positive that Spyderco is moving away from functional based choices, there are enough knives out there which fill those markets.
You don't feel like this is a bit of an over-reaction based on this being a limited edition run? Why get upset at this vs one of their Damascus runs for example? Or something like the Kopa line which was clearly geared strictly to the collector? It seems like they've always played both sides of the fences and have been a knife in hand company for the majority of their production line but also occasionally throw a bone to the collector or 'gentleman' user.
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Postby Henry - get both » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:01 am

Hi Cliff,

I tend to agree with what you've said but am happy as long as Spyderco is "mostly" performance based. I cant tell you how disinterested I am in the damascus endura's with bone handles. Thankfully the regular enduras are much more available and obviously its not like I have to buy the artsy model. Also, I don't think this clad spyder-art compromises on performance (like ZT).

Edit - Obviously there is some compromise on cost vs performance.

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Postby Blerv » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:11 am

FCM415 wrote:Isnt S90v expensive enough already though? For that much higher cost, the only physical advantage is scratch marks? I have s90v blades and scratching isnt more of an issue compared to other steels. Im a CPM154 fan but it scratches also. I recall someone in the defunct ZT forum on BF took offense when I pointed out that the composite innovation I can do without since it appears to be purely aesthetic. His argument couldnt include any real advantage for the user. I'd still like to have this one because its a PM2. Choosing this platform as the first model to have it is wise.
In theory another advantage would be higher toughness than a normal blank of CPM-S90v. Scratching would be less likely than 420 clad (which would be tougher than 154/S90v).

On that note, "in theory" is the key. Until someone (in this case Spyderco) makes the stuff and finds it's limits all we have is metallurgy notes and conjecture. There are many hair-brained ideas that have failed just as the critics predicted. There are some that regardless of what the calculations said ended up working out well whether in actual product or advancing technology(s) surrounding it.

The race to space was in hind-sight the dumbest thing ever. It did unify a country and lead to the advancements of other technology though. While cladding two steels probably won't create the next cell phone technology, it's fair to let companies invest their own money (like akaAK said) and see what happens. It's not like Spyderco has to answer to any shareholders let alone a few people on the forums.
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Postby jalcon » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:33 am

That one on ebay sold for $595. After fees, that person made around 45-50 bucks. Lol.

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Postby JNewell » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:24 pm

FCM415 wrote:Isnt S90v expensive enough already though? For that much higher cost, the only physical advantage is scratch marks? I have s90v blades and scratching isnt more of an issue compared to other steels. Im a CPM154 fan but it scratches also. I recall someone in the defunct ZT forum on BF took offense when I pointed out that the composite innovation I can do without since it appears to be purely aesthetic. His argument couldnt include any real advantage for the user. I'd still like to have this one because its a PM2. Choosing this platform as the first model to have it is wise.
I had one of the Kershaw Shallots. It was a complete under-performer, probably due to low HRC levels. Whatever the innovation was, it wasn't in edge performance.

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Postby Philo Beddoe » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:29 pm

Cliff Stamp wrote:
It is unfortunate that Spyderco is using a clad which has none of the advantages of the reason that clads were/are used and in fact is even more expensive (?) than a solid steel.

This clad doesn't seem at all to fit with the Spyderco line of wanting to be the knife used in hand not sitting in a safe.

There are lots of companies which leverage fads, which make cool/gimmick knives, I don't see it as a positive that Spyderco is moving into that area - however I can understand there is money to be made, just unfortunately they can't do that by focusing on high quality working tools with real and practical advantages to the consumer.

Yeah just like I'm sure 99% of those $250 "Spyderco Stretch Blue Nishijin Glass Fiber and Damascus" Stretches that are sold will be put into hard EDC use instead of going straight to a safe :rolleyes:

If you had bothered to read, this is more about giving the CC members a gift of a rare knife than anything else, and I do see that as a positive..

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Postby nccole » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:32 pm

The CPM 154/CPM S90V clad could ultimately end up being cheaper than straight S90V if/when Spyderco commits to buying a large amount of it. They may have already negotiated a price, and said they will conditionally commit to buy a large amount so long as a few tryout runs are successful in manufacturing. There are so many unknowns and possibilities that it is useless to condemn them or praise them for what we don't know to be a good or bad decision to try something new. Just enjoy the ride and see what new steels you may get your hands on, or open your own knife manufacturing company and call the shots. The latter sounds like a lot of stress to me, I will just wait on Sal :D

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Postby Henry - get both » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:07 pm

Oh yes, I would love to hear what Sal has to say about this steel.

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Postby JNewell » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:11 pm

The funny thing is that there are people here who would probably do drastic things to get their hands on a straight CPM-154 blade, forget the CPM-S90V! :D

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Postby jabba359 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:19 pm

Cliff, for someone who so highly values the scientific process, I was surprised to see you categorically deny that there could possibly be any advantages to this steel without even testing it or waiting for more information. I doubt the cladding is just an aesthetic choice, as the one picture I saw had a cladding line that wasn't particularly attractive (and I tend to like the cladding lines on the Japanese laminates). Rather than make a snap judgement, I'd like to hear what the reasoning behind this clad steel is and what they hope to achieve over straight S90V.
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The real question is, when looking at Halle Berry, do I care how fast she runs 100 yards? :D
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Postby FCM415 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:23 pm

JNewell wrote:The funny thing is that there are people here who would probably do drastic things to get their hands on a straight CPM-154 blade, forget the CPM-S90V! :D
Yes! Ive been begging for some CPM154. I also like S90v very much.
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Postby JNewell » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:27 pm

The original early 2013 thread that Cliff cited is worth a read. There are a lot of contributions from Ed Schemmp, Sal, Phil Wilson, Bob Shabala (from Niagra) and others. Kyle, I think you had several posts in that thread, too! :D I don't come away from that thread thinking that this is necessarily an economic or performance breakthrough, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

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