Pygmy Warrior Update T&E

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
Greg Walker
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Postby Greg Walker » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:15 am

Mark - it was a fun magazine and I appreciate your mentioning it :)

Fighting Knives was one of the very first major cutlery publications to give Sal and Spyderco Knives immediate and duly earned (and constant) publication of their knives and tools. This due to my introduction to Sal via Al Mar - who knew Sal was about the revolutionze the cutlery industry with both his designs and the now ultra present pocket clip for carry.
GW

Greg Walker
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Postby Greg Walker » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:41 am

Postscript -

It is important, historically, to note the following regarding any other variation or version of the original "Warrior" concept and the first custom made examples commissioned by Randy Wanner and then Bob Taylor / Randy...and then Bob / Spyderco.

This includes the soon to be released Pygmy Warrior.

In a recent (now several months ago) phone conversation with Randy (Wanner) he made it very clear he has no association with the warrior design from Israeli martial arts instructior Guy R. Randy told me he has never seen one and has no interest in seeing or handling this variation.

Randy is one of those rare folks for whom money means nothing. His words. When offered a royalty percentage one each warrior knife he declined as he wants no association with this model whatsoever. Bob T stated same (again, to me). Both Randy and Bob accepted Mike Janich's recommendation any royalty the two could have arranged with Spyderco could be donated by Spyderco to a non profit organization working with wounded, injured or ill Special Operations folks.

This was agreed to and has been underway since the introdution of the Guy R warrior.

At the time we spoke Randy was still in possession of the original hand ground prototype of the Warrior that he, Mike Echanis and Chuck Sanders agreed upon in the concept's earliest stage.

At that time it was to be titled the "Echanis Warrior Knife". But MDE's untimely death and the Echanis Family's declining, in 1980, to authorize Mike's name or image be associated in any manner with such a project. This upon receving a very kind letter from Randy explaining the proposed project and referring them to Bob T, then living in Grant's Pass, Oregon.

The Echanis', although never having met Randy, think well of him to this day. He never did anyting to take advantage of their son / brother in life or in death.

After this the knife became simply the "Warrior".

It is my understanding from talking with Mr. Wanner that he has no interest, interests nor inclination to be associated with whatever variations, versions or imitations of the Warrior as he and Mike/Chuck envisioned it so long ago. He is today living quietly, comfortably and peacefully and still perfecting his Hwa Rang Do as all true Masters do regardless of their Art.

I appreciated the time he spent talking with me and continue to hold him in high esteem.

Pax
GW

Greg Walker
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Postby Greg Walker » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:17 am

Pygmy Eval -

Originally, when I'd asked, Sal offered he'd have a Pygmy sent out for me to evaluate.

I posted same here.

Bob T sent a note my way offering my note could be construed as getting a free knife from Spyderco.

I don't believe either Sal or I felt this was the case but in any event I let Spyderco know that sending out an eval piece was not necessary.

As I did with my Spyderco Guy R Warrior and my Mike Janich Yojimbo, I'll buy a Pygmy when it becomes available and report back - as I did with the two aforementioned knives - how it performs :spyder:
GW

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sal
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Postby sal » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:14 pm

Probably time for some of my input.

When Guy Rafaeli came to me with the concept and design for a knife he wanted to see made available to Israeli military, I decided that it was too similar to the "Warrior" concept to have it's own name. I felt that it was part of an evolving concept and should be part of that evolution. I also felt that it would be some nice information to be able to provide my customers with some history and "story" on the concept.

Mike Echanis was gone, Al Mar was gone, I'd never heard of Randy Wanner so Bob Taylor became my connection. Mike Janich agreed to help me with my project. Since Mike and I are "Truth-seekers", I decided spend the time and funds to visit Bob and get what information I could first hand. Bob (and Chris) was not only the best resource possible, they were exceptionally helpful in the history and details of the "Warrior / Hobbit" evolution. They were there for all of it!

While we were with Bob and Chris, Bob telephoned Randy, explained what we were doing and invited him to participate. He said that he was not interested in the knife, the project, me or anything we were doing. I could see Bob was disappointed. Chris on the other hand knew Randy and was not surprized. (wise woman). If Randy did not have enough respect for me to even speak with me, I will return the same lack of respect

With all due respect, I have a hard time chewing someone else's cabbage. Randy had an opportunity to be involved. He chose not to. That was his choice. Frankly I am not interested in anything Randy has to say unless he wants to say it to me. Mike wote a very nice history. We gave credit where is was needed. We made corrections that you had asked for on behalf of the Echanis family, even though they did not come directly from the Echanis family to me. We did so only because we understood and respected their health issues. Otherwise, I am not interested in anything the Echanis family has to say unless they wish to say it to me. ( I invested $100K in a CATRA edge tester because I like to gather my own information before I repeat it).

What I learned was that Randy Wanner and Mike Echanis may have been part of the spark that created the ergonomic concept of the arc, ergos and general form of the "Warrior" design, but they did not make it happen. Bob Taylor was / is the fire that is the Modern Warrior.

Bob started this thread at my request to discuss the modern Warrior, what we're doing with the design, where we're going and why. For that, Bob Taylor is the best resource and we're fortunate to have him available. Should he wish to add history, that's his call. After all, it's all first hand.

You are certainly invited and welcome to participate in the discussion about the "Modern Warrior / Hobbit", including the "Pygmy", But neither Mike Echanis or Randy Wanner are part of that discussion and I would prefer they remain so.

Your kind understanding and cooperation is appreciated.

The Pygmy should be shipping soon.

The Modern "Warrior" is a design created for the Warriors of our world. Military, Law Enforcement, Militia. Some may choose to collect them and not use them. We are working with Bob to create additional versions, and if the response to the Pygmy is good, you will see them in production.

Thanx much and sorry for the rant.

sal

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Mike Sastre
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Postby Mike Sastre » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:10 pm

Thanks, Sal!

Greg Walker
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Postby Greg Walker » Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:01 pm

:spyder: :cool:
GW

Greg Walker
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Postby Greg Walker » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:51 am

I have advised Sal I will no longer be posting to this or any other thread having to do with the Warrior project on this forum.

VR/Greg
GW

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sal
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Postby sal » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:41 am

That's your call Greg. You are certainly welcome to begin a thread regarding Echanis and Wanner. This topic of this thread was intended to discuss the Pygmy model, which you are also welcome to comment.

sal

Greg Walker
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Postby Greg Walker » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:54 am

Sal, thank you for the kind personal note this morning.

I have sent a most cordial reply back your way.

As always, you are a class act and a gentleman :cool:

When the Pygmy becomes available I'll pick one up. I'll be evaluating / comparing to a Hobbit I own and one of my Cobras from White Shadow Security.

I'll post my thoughts, observations and experiences here.

Pax :spyder:
GW

Greg Walker
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Postby Greg Walker » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:22 am

Sal -

Thanks for the offer of a thread about Mike on the Forums :)

I think there's a ton of discussion / information already available on one or another thread as BT pointed out :)

I'm posting just a few responses and photos on a thread appearing on ProfessionalSoldiers.com

There's some "old heads" from back when Mike and Chuck were at Bragg who are likewise sharing some good historical recollections about MDE.

Cleaning up the record and setting the story straight.

MJ should by now have gotten the official documentation packet I sent him for his research library about Mike. With so much bad information out there for years I figured this gesture would be of help to him. I certainly had many misconceptions and outright myths/lies cleared up while collecting the info :)

Pax :spyder:
GW

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Postby Michael Janich » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:48 am

Greg Walker wrote:MJ should by now have gotten the official documentation packet I sent him for his research library about Mike. With so much bad information out there for years I figured this gesture would be of help to him. I certainly had many misconceptions and outright myths/lies cleared up while collecting the info :)

Pax :spyder:
Nothing received yet...

Stay safe,

Mike
Michael Janich
Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts

Greg Walker
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Postby Greg Walker » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:59 pm

Mike,

Sent Priority Mail last week to below address:

Stay Safe Media, LLLP
2770 Arapahoe Road
Suite 132-176
Lafayette, CO 80026

Please advise when you receive.

Thanks!

Greg
GW

Michael Janich
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Postby Michael Janich » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:48 am

That explains it--that's not my address. I'll have to track it down...

Mike
Michael Janich
Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts

Greg Walker
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Postby Greg Walker » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:51 am

Oops! Sorry about that. Went by your website for Stay Safe as opposed to Spyderco :o

Package sent on 4/21/2014 to that address at 12:07PM from Postal Annex in Portland :)



Greg
GW

Greg Walker
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Postby Greg Walker » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:45 pm

Mike -

Just checked by tracking number.

That address no longer valid - no forwarding address given.

Package began its trip back to me on the 26th.

I should see it tomorrow or Thursday.

Let me know what is a better address for you?

Greg
GW

Michael Janich
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Postby Michael Janich » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:10 am

The Stay Safe address is valid; but I don't receive mail there.

If you ship to the Spyderco address I'm sure I'll get it.

Mike
Michael Janich
Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts

Greg Walker
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Postby Greg Walker » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:36 am

Okie dokie :)
GW

Greg Walker
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Postby Greg Walker » Thu May 01, 2014 4:48 pm

Mike - package arrived back here today.

I'll re-pack and address and send out next Monday or Tuesday.
GW

Greg Walker
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Postby Greg Walker » Sat May 10, 2014 11:29 pm

MJ -

Quik note -

Have not forgotten just way busy with work and other projects involving MDE.

G
GW

Greg Walker
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Postby Greg Walker » Fri May 23, 2014 8:19 am

When held in the reverse grip the Pygmy, due to the integral upper and lower sub-guards, will bite into the palm (see BT's initial photo on this thread as illustration of this).

This is inherit aspect of such a design feature which does away with an actual guard piece as seen in the original Warrior / Hobbit Warrior.

The same integral guard is seen in the White Shadow "Cobra" and with same drawback. Held in strong grip and applied vigorously the upper tine will pinch / "bite" into the lower portion of the palm.

Reducing this "bite" could have been accomplished by rounding the upper tine rather than having it come to the sharp "edge" or "point" that it does.

Another functional issue to be aware of regards the double tine style integral guard, as well.

In a committed thrust - and all thrusts should be committed - the hand holding the knife in either the forward or reverse grip is not protected from impact and potentially sliding up onto the double edged blade.

The original double guard piece for the Warrior and Hobbit Warrior took this into serious consideration. Again, as noted in earlier posts, BT used to dip his hand while holding a Warrior into STP motor oil and then slam the knife through a tire (point of impact - in real life bone, body armor, hard obstructions not considered or presented such as a rifle magazine in a chest vest).

Slashing wise the Pygmy is in its safest mode user wise in most situations. However, direct thrusts will prove dicey as there essentially is no true guard to prevent the hand from running itself forward onto the very aggressive blade.
GW


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