Southard Flipper Full flat regrind

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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Buendia518
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Postby Buendia518 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:17 am

Blerv wrote:It's not what you said but how you said it. When playing the brutally honest game it's fair to expect other participants.

Folding knives (especially Spydies) are performance tools first and foremost. Many people with regrinds find them superior in nearly every way for this. You should try one sometime.
+1 I'm eager to use a knife that's been reground really thin and hopefully Travis can end up doing one or two for me.

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Postby wrdwrght » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:35 am

razorsharp wrote:Image


Image

Been playing with finishes. I really like this finish but may end up stonewashing it. By doing this horizontal satin, in the process of taking out the grind lines z I ended up doing a true zero grind, though I ant to thicken it a little (IL have no choice but to thicken it if I stonewash it)
As I said, topnotch!

What I did not say (and should have said, to keep this thread from going off the rails, gpo1956, is that these changes are a pimping of the blade for some sort of cosmetic satisfaction. I don't believe that for a second. What I should have made clearer in my quick response to Holland is my belief that performance is part of the aesthetic of knife-making, especially Sal's and Eric's. In other words, cosmetics are part of the aesthetic but hardly the only part. I (we?) don't buy Spydies just because they look good.

My question about aesthetics was, as I said, a philosophical one and hinged on my understanding that a Spyderco knife is a declaration by design of a some high level of performance, a level I am content to have "as is". I was wondering why "as is" was not sufficient for some among us. I thought Travis answered that question...

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Postby Donut » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:22 am

Nice work Travis.

I was thinking, "Why does Southard make a knife with such a thick blade when everything else on the knife is optimized for cutting performance?" I believe it is the demand of the market.
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Postby Cliff Stamp » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:57 am

ABX2011 wrote:Your analogy isn't good either.
I didn't use an analogy, I used a definition.
It isn't jewelry.
If you start compromising the function of a tool for the aesthetics then it is more jewelry (by definition) than it is a tool. Even jewelry can be used, you could take a chain off your neck and use it as very expensive cordage, but this doesn't mean it isn't (in general) jewelry.

Jewelry also does not have to be publically displayed or made from rare stones, they are simple small personal items carried primarily for aesthetic purposes. There are lots of women (and I assume men) who wear jewelry but it is concealed under their clothes.

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Postby ABX2011 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:45 am

Cliff Stamp wrote:If you start compromising the function of a tool for the aesthetics then it is more jewelry (by definition) than it is a tool.
You're going to have a tough time quantifying that one.

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Postby Blerv » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:17 pm

ABX2011 wrote:You're going to have a tough time quantifying that one.
Not really, especially with his use of the word "more".

Tool: a device or implement, esp. one held in the hand, used to carry out a particular function.
Jewelry: personal ornaments, such as necklaces, rings, or bracelets, that are typically made from or contain jewels and precious metal.

Function is the key value of a tool, namely it's efficiency. While it's not hard to argue that a Gransfors Bruks axe or Southard is beautiful much is due to the intrinsic value of that good and the effort that went into it's creation. I wouldn't consider a knife adornment (even if clipped) and it's use of a titanium alloy is more functional than anything.
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Postby Cliff Stamp » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:11 pm

ABX2011 wrote:You're going to have a tough time quantifying that one.
Why would this be difficult, if you would make a decision not to purchase a knife because of how it looks then it is in your eyes jewelry as that is why you are carrying it. How many carpenters have you ever seen pick up a hammer to evaluate it and then put it down because it was not pretty enough, even though it was more functional as a hammer than the one next to it. It it a trivial classification.

That being said, jewelry isn't a pejorative. I have a very nice looking carbon fibre pen which was given to me as a gift specifically because of how it looks, it clearly is more jewelry than pen, that is why I don't carry it very often as it does not actually write very well. However if you don't do a lot of writing, and you like carbon fibre then it might be the pen for you to carry.

Yes you can have an opinion that it does not make as nice a piece of jewelry now as it did to you before the mod, however if you make those kinds of statements about tools then people who actually buy tools to use are likely to respond to it that they don't care about jewelry, they just want the hammer to hammer and the knife to cut well, being pretty isn't part of the decision making process.

But again, its your money, if you would rather it be pretty than function, then buy the things you like which are pretty.

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Postby ABX2011 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:36 pm

Cliff Stamp wrote:But again, its your money, if you would rather it be pretty than function, then buy the things you like which are pretty.
Firstly, I'm not sure that a stock Southard is less of a tool than a reground one. The stock one is better suited to hard use. And looks better so I guess it's a better piece of jewelry by your definition.
Secondly, yes of course I buy knives for their aesthetic appeal and for variety. Otherwise I'd just own a Delica.

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Postby Blerv » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:54 pm

You don't have to guess to know which one will be sharper, hold an edge much longer (unless cutting linoleum) and sharpen far easier. So unless your daily routine is installing bathroom flooring or stabbing trees it's game, set, match for the regrind.

Factory grinds are designed for a wide audience of users. Many of which will unknowingly abuse knives and have problems working with a warranty & repair department. That's why Spyderco grinds their knives very thin for OEM but far from one of these belt-sander jobs.

Basically...people are the cause of most broken toys. :p
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Postby razorsharp » Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:08 pm

ABX2011 wrote:Firstly, I'm not sure that a stock Southard is less of a tool than a reground one. The stock one is better suited to hard use. And looks better so I guess it's a better piece of jewelry by your definition.
Secondly, yes of course I buy knives for their aesthetic appeal and for variety. Otherwise I'd just own a Delica.
most my knives are built for hard use but 204p -although it holds up pretty good to hard use, suits a slicing role much better.edge retention drom the steel itself+ edge retention added by thinning the grind = Knife boner for people who like high performance. :)

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Postby ABX2011 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:17 pm

razorsharp wrote:edge retention drom the steel itself+ edge retention added by thinning the grind = Knife boner for people who like high performance. :)
Haha. No doubt about it.

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Postby Cliff Stamp » Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:36 pm

ABX2011 wrote:The stock one is better suited to hard use.
This argument could have been made, however in all the years I have seen it made I have never, not ONE time, ever seen anyone make that criticism which wasn't shenanigans. Invariably when people openly claim/promote they carry knives for hard use, or argue that knives are not fit for hard use and they show their knives they show no signs of use, hard or otherwise.

Beyond that, in order to actually support the claim that the original knife is more suited to hard use you would actually have to know that the knife construction is able to take loads which would break the blade and that thus is the functional weak point. Have you actually broken Spyderco knives of that sort of grind or similar construction and you can make the claim that the blade will fail on that knife as the weak point and not the lock or handle or pivot? If so, which ones?

However even if this is the case, the user has broken a number of knives so they can make that claim of knowledge, and their knives show signs of hard use which would damage the one Travis reground - even in all of those cases, it would be very rare for such a person to pick knives because they are pretty. So again, I would call shenanigans for that argument as a defense of it not being jewelry to complain about the aesthetics.
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Postby Syncharmony » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:24 pm

Cliff Stamp wrote:He is changing the tool so the performance is increased, the analogy isn't at all applicable.

It certainly fits with the tag line that Sal uses in that he would make the knife which is the tool you carry for function rather than the piece you carry because it is pretty.

But if you buy knives for jewelry, its your money - some people actually use them however so they focus on function.
I was using the analogy to illustrate that if you own an item, then you should be able to do whatever you want with it, regardless of what other people think. I didn't intend to incite a form vs function argument.

That being said, if the stickers on my car add 10 horsepower, then some lime green polka dots have got to be worth at least 25 HP at the wheels!
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Postby paladin » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:34 pm

Was one of the main positive qualities of the S90V / CPM154 laminate its "pretty"ness after finishing? I think I remember reading that on the boards here somewhere...
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Postby Cliff Stamp » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:51 pm

Syncharmony wrote:I was using the analogy to illustrate that if you own an item, then you should be able to do whatever you want with it, regardless of what other people think.
Of course, its your item.

The curious part in the knife industry is people who clearly buy knives not for purpose but maintain at almost all cost that they do as if it was some dirty secret that has to be hidden.

Why be ashamed that you buy knives because they are pretty, it is fairly silly to pretend that it really is a tool first when it looks the same a year later as it does as-boxed.

That being said, if the stickers on my car add 10 horsepower, then some lime green polka dots have got to be worth at least 25 HP at the wheels!
Speed holes are the true secret to horsepower.

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Postby boonedawg » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:44 pm

That horizontal grind is beautiful...Stop you nailed it.

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Postby w3tnz » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:26 pm

Nice job Travis, should come up with a logo you can stamp on there ! Any notable difference in how it flips out with a few grams shaved off?

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Postby Stuart Ackerman » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:59 pm

w3tnz wrote:Nice job Travis, should come up with a logo you can stamp on there ! Any notable difference in how it flips out with a few grams shaved off?
Good point w3tnz...

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Postby Evil D » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:55 am

Are you guys still grinding out this ridiculous debate? It's simple. You don't like the regrind? Don't post in this thread. Move on. If you have real constructive criticism then that's one thing but this jewelry debate is silly. I do happen to buy based on looks quite a bit but I also use my pocket jewelry quite hard so I don't see why you can't have looks and function. Some see the beauty in functionality too. The whole discussion is so subjective there won't ever be a right or wrong answer. The function of clothes is to keep us covered and protected from the elements but we put more thought into it than that don't we? All a car is needed for is transportation but we buy what looks good right? Then some of us stuff superchargers and nitrous in them because we like our transportation to be a bit higher performing ;)
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Postby Cliff Stamp » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:39 am

I second the stamp suggestion, Krein became very popular very fast being associated with regrinds and this obviously leverages very strongly if you decide to make knives.


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