Mule Team flipping

[sal]

It seems like the Mule Team products being flipped is creating problems. Probably time to ask for suggestions on solutions.

sal

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

Sadly there probably isn't really anything that will be hugely effective. Maybe it could be slowed a little by limiting it to 2 per credit card/paypal account.

That's about all I can think of at this moment.

It is an issue, same with sprints...but I'm not sure that it can be stopped.

[RadioactiveSpyder]

Good to hear you chiming on Sal. Honestly I'm not sure much can be done for those that amass a few friends together to collect a handful or more and then flip them. I think your policy of 2 per customer is very fair but the case I mention is unavoidable. I'm not sure how or if anyone could grab a large quantity single-handedly, do you allow any larger batches out to dealers beyond ones we're sure about their upright reputation (e.g. the likes of Jim Howe, etc)?

[TomAiello]

You could track the biggest flippers by their ebay accounts pretty easily. You'd definitely get volunteers from this forum to buy some from the guys advertising a bunch on ebay and report their names/addresses to you.

It's always going to be a big battle, though, because they can still use straw purchasers to buy them.

Maybe a pre-order system, where you have to pay in advance, would work? Because it would require a big flipper to tie up more money for a longer time? And if someone was caught out you could just make "no more than 2" part of the purchase contract, and refund them? Or if you felt angry enough just not refund them, I guess, but that doesn't seem like your style.

[Strong-Dog]

Sadly there probably isn't really anything that will be hugely effective. Maybe it could be slowed a little by limiting it to 2 per credit card/paypal account.

That's about all I can think of at this moment.

It is an issue, same with sprints...but I'm not sure that it can be stopped.

I thought there already was a limit to two per payment method? Anyways, I don't think there is a clear cut solution to this. Maybe making more mule runs during the year would make people feel like if they miss out, they don't have to turn to ebay and instead wait a couple months for the next one. Once your facility is upsized, maybe this could be a solution?

[TomAiello]

Sadly there probably isn't really anything that will be hugely effective. Maybe it could be slowed a little by limiting it to 2 per credit card/paypal account.

Isn't that already the way it works?

I assumed flippers were using multiple purchasers, by having friends buy them and them reimbursing their friends?

If they're using the same card to purchase, that's easy to track, but it's also easy to work around that restriction if you're a motivated flipper.

[Nate]

You could track the biggest flippers by their ebay accounts pretty easily. You'd definitely get volunteers from this forum to buy some from the guys advertising a bunch on ebay and report their names/addresses to you.

I like the idea of trying to better quantify the extent of the flipping as part of deciding on any action. Just counting up the listings on Ebay and BFs for a couple of months could provide a fair estimate. Is it 50-70 knives (which looks like a lot when you see all of the listing hit, but could only be 5-7%) or is it a third/half of the run?

[Ankerson]

It seems like the Mule Team products being flipped is creating problems. Probably time to ask for suggestions on solutions.

sal

Hi Sal,

Not really sure what the solution would be as there will always be those few who will get over at the expense of others finding ways around the set standards of purchasing limited production models.

Other than a prepay months ahead of time, paid in full months ahead of time like 3 to 6 months I am not sure how to slow it down or stop it.

There will always be that small percentage that messes it up for the rest or so it seems.

It's sad really.

Jim

[Trevitrace]

Two per zip code :)

[Cujobob]

Can I ask, why limit of 2 instead of limit of 1? While I like to have backups or buy one as a gift, if something is extremely limited, wouldn't it make more sense to make them individually available to people putting in the time to get one?

If you limited to one, it would add more work for the Spyderco crew, but it makes it harder for those picking up multiples and flipping them.

Other than that, I would look at it as an opportunity. K390 and S110V is in demand as evidenced by the going secondary market prices. Make plenty more knives with higher end steels. Overly limited runs are just going to be in demand.

[dishcore]

Two per zip code :)

Well that just might result in some folks being forcibly removed from their zip codes :D

[Henry - get both]

Just have a note on the order page saying "anyone who wants to flip these please contact us while it is in stock and tell us the number you plan on flipping so we can mail you the $50 per knife instead".

[Cujobob]

Would limiting sales to one per customer help things? I know this essentially increases the workload for you folks as it will mean more orders, but that means those who may use family or friends to order multiples of a product would have more trouble. Outside of that, I would say not to produce anything 'too' limited. The 300 piece PM2 run is going to make those ridiculously expensive on the secondary market. S110V, like other super steels, is in high demand. The more products using them, the

[rodloos]

One solution might be to go ahead and do another run, to decrease the demand for those trying to profit via ebay :) .

While *I* wouldn't have a problem with prepaying for a popular steel, I sure remember a lot of grousing about the wait for the KnifeWorks-sponsored PM2, even though they only required something like $20 down. With the inevitable delays that might come up with all of the scheduling of all the wonderful knives Spyderco is producing, I'm sure there would be a lot of negative posts. Not to mention folks new to the forum, finding out about the knife too late to get in on the pre-order.

I guess one possibility might be to put a serial number on *all* the knives, not just CC ones, at least it would help track who the flippers were, after-the-fact :) . I think all my ESEE knives have serial numbers.

Would it be possible to increase the number of knives in the run of steel that is expected to be this popular, or is that too hard to gauge? I know not all mules have sold out immediately, some were available for months. I assume Spyderco isn't making much money on these but is making them available to us to test, right? But hopefully they aren't *losing* money per run.

I don't know how else you can get around the guy who has friends/family members buy knives so he can flip them, other than if the perceived demand is not so much higher than the supply.

Some people are *always* going to selling them on ebay, some after changing their minds, or whatever. I even see someone trying to sell their MT05 9cr18mo for $120, I think I they sold for around $20 initially right? :)

[dishcore]

It seems like the Mule Team products being flipped is creating problems. Probably time to ask for suggestions on solutions.

sal

Could a Mule Team Club Membership type of scenario play into this? You have to be an actual person and pay a yearly membership fee, (similar to the Collectors Club). Only the folks that are paid and signed up for the membership get Mules.

It could be optional still, like if a certain steel is released that one member isn't interested in, then they aren't required to buy. But only registered members (annual club fee $5 or something) and that gets you rights to purchase.


The flippers are in the mule flop business to make extra cash on the secondary market. If the Mule Team were more of a "elite" group of purchasing folk, it might hinder their progress if there is a complicated registration and annual fee or the like.

Makes me think of usn's policy of non-commercial email domain names for registration to restrict trolling and enforce a sense of accountability.

I would be willing to pay an annual fee to be part of a "Mule Team Team", even if it were a bit larger than $5, and got me a spot to purchase when they were produced.

[rodloos]

Can I ask, why limit of 2 instead of limit of 1? While I like to have backups or buy one as a gift, if something is extremely limited, wouldn't it make more sense to make them individually available to people putting in the time to get one?

If you limited to one, it would add more work for the Spyderco crew, but it makes it harder for those picking up multiples and flipping them.

Other than that, I would look at it as an opportunity. K390 and S110V is in demand as evidenced by the going secondary market prices. Make plenty more knives with higher end steels. Overly limited runs are just going to be in demand.

There are several forum members who have ordered 2, one for themselves and another to help another forum member who lives overseas or for whatever reason is not able purchase from SFO at the time. I usually order 2 to qualify for the free (within the US) shipping, and to have a backup for a much-anticipated knife. I have never been able to bring myself to sell any of my knives though :) .

[Holland]

you could release each MT in 2 runs. This would decrease the increase in aftermarket demand and cost if people new more were coming. Would help short term atleast

[Henry - get both]

Could a Mule Team Club Membership type of scenario play into this? You have to be an actual person and pay a yearly membership fee, (similar to the Collectors Club). Only the folks that are paid and signed up for the membership get Mules.

It could be optional still, like if a certain steel is released that one member isn't interested in, then they aren't required to buy. But only registered members (annual club fee $5 or something) and that gets you rights to purchase.


The flippers are in the mule flop business to make extra cash on the secondary market. If the Mule Team were more of a "elite" group of purchasing folk, it might hinder their progress if there is a complicated registration and annual fee or the like.

Makes me think of usn's policy of non-commercial email domain names for registration to restrict trolling and enforce a sense of accountability.

I would be willing to pay an annual fee to be part of a "Mule Team Team", even if it were a bit larger than $5, and got me a spot to purchase when they were produced.

I can see that actually making flipping more profitable.

In all seriousness there is no solution.

[dishcore]

I can see that actually making flipping more profitable.

In all seriousness there is no solution.

More profitable like they would be more of a limited item? It was just a thought at making it difficult for flippers that aren't as motivated to get involved.

I agree that it would in turn make the knives more of a coveted item.

I was able to get one MT18, as well as one MT17 when they were available. The fact that you can just go to the website and order 2 makes it easy as pie. I need 2 and my fiance needs 2 (i'm joking here of course) - but if the process of buying them were more difficult it may make the flipping less of an occurrence. Not that it will stop it entirely, but maybe hinder it some.

[jabba359]

I'm sorry that you even need to address this Sal. I'm very grateful for the Mule program and find it sad that some out there are trying to take advantage of the system. The limit of 2 per person is fair and I know that it's a fine line that Spyderco tries to balance as far as production quantity is concerned. Make too many, and you have unsold stock taking up shelf space. Make too few, and a couple flippers somehow acquire a bunch and leave everyone with a bad taste in their mouth.

There is unlikely a surefire way to solve this problem, as those that are determined to find a way around the rules will usually find a way around. Offering to make another run may be one way to cut the speculators short, but I realize that fitting another run into the schedule (as well as acquiring more steel in the proper thickness) is no easy task. I appreciate that you're willing to look for a solution to the flipper problem, as it's just one more headache that you shouldn't have to worry about.