Mule Team flipping

[JNewell]

It is annoying that flippers beat enthusiasts to these products, no doubt about that. But trying to control it would be likely to offend many of us by over reaching the norms of business, yet still not succeeding in affecting the market (because the market rules the market). I am a collector of many things including Mules. I have both bought and sold Mules at aftermarket prices and am happy to have the option for both. I also have a collector friend in Europe that buys knives including Mules and has them sent to me, I combine several of his purchases and ship in one box saving him hundred each year. I would hate to be scrutinized for doing this favor as there are always 4 of each mule coming to my address.

Back to my point of only the market can rule the market. Doubling the size of each run would make it a less lucrative prospect as there would then be enough to go around to the enthusiasts even with the flipper taking their cut out. Stick the flippers with some unprofitable blades and they won't be so eager to buy the next batch.

As some of you know, I am pretty firmly free-market on these things, but seeing someone selling six and hearing about someone who bought nine is really a bit hard to accept. The market solutions (increase volume, increase price) are probably the only easy solutions, but in some cases there won't be (hasn't been) enough steel to double or triple the run, and in any case doubling or tripling the price would have some obvious and very unattractive consequences. Like Yablanowitz, I have been buying one or two of these since MT01 and I would hate to see the fundamentals of this program change.

So there is a question: how much do we hate speculation? - to what lengths would we go to end it? :confused:

[Ankerson]

As some of you know, I am pretty firmly free-market on these things, but seeing someone selling six and hearing about someone who bought nine is really a bit hard to accept. The market solutions (increase volume, increase price) are probably the only easy solutions, but in some cases there won't be (hasn't been) enough steel to double or triple the run, and in any case doubling or tripling the price would have some obvious and very unattractive consequences. Like Yablanowitz, I have been buying one or two of these since MT01 and I would hate to see the fundamentals of this program change.

So there is a question: how much do we hate speculation? - to what lengths would we go to end it? :confused:

Free market is fine as long as people aren't breaking the law.

Kinda of like illegal substances, supply and demand, yeah well it's still illegal even though people want it so it doesn't make it alright.

[Gerard Breuker]

If you make mules only available to forum members and engrave the forum name on the mules it could bring down resale value quite a bit while keeping the original intent of the project.
It would make the mules a bit more expensive but it seems they are too cheap now anyway and it would be immediately clear who only want to flip them.

[gaj999]

I guess one possibility might be to put a serial number on *all* the knives, not just CC ones, at least it would help track who the flippers were, after-the-fact :) .

I LIKE it! And we could have a Hall of Shame.

I also support the one per customer idea. It won't stop the flipping, but anything done to slow it down is a good thing in my book. Keeps some of those spares out of safes and in the hands of users, too. It also makes it a bit harder for folks who buy two with the idea of flipping one to pay for the first, many of whom see nothing wrong with the idea since they're not flipping them by the bucketful, after all. A limit of two kind of supports that idea in an implicit way ... Maybe one per customer for the first couple of weeks, then open it up if stock remains?

Gordon

[Rwb1500]

I want to thank Sal and the rest of the Spydie crew for their concern in this matter. It's obviously an issue that bothers a lot of us and I'm just so happy that the owner of the company cares about his buyers (addicts ) so much that he'd even address this. Lots of companies out there would be high fiving because their product is in such high demand, thankfully Integrity seems to play a large role at 820 Spyderco Way.

I've only ever bought one Mule. It took me about 6 months to scale, since I had to basically teach myself woodworking from what I've learned here from a number of inspired and very talented craftsmen. That one Mule means a lot to me, since it took so much work and trial and error. It isn't pretty, but it's mine and I'm **** proud of it. Truthfully fixed blades don't appeal to me as much as some of you because I don't often have the chance to use them. I have been casually waiting for another Mule to buy, but I have to be careful financially so I'm waiting on another lower priced model. (Not to say that they all aren't reasonably priced.) I've looked into buying a few but I'm never quick enough because I don't follow the release as religiously as some . My Cruwear Mule was kind of a fluke, I just happened to be here the day it went up.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the Mule project is an incredible thing, and I'd be very sad to see it go if that were considered a solution. It builds a sense of community. I can't tell you how many people were willing and able to help me while scaling my Mule. It's also an incredible testbed for materials that we just don't see anywhere else, brought to us by the greatest knife company in the world.

I'll tell you one thing, I'm going to do my best to get my hands on the next Mule Team and do exactly what I should with it, beat the crap out if it.

[Ankerson]

Another thought on this...

The longer it goes on without something being done about it the worse it will get, there will be more flippers as time goes on, not less....

And that alone is a risk to the project...

Same with the Sprint runs... People buying up large batches only to flip them at high prices..... But then that is a more complicated problem.......

So yes it does need to be addressed IMO.

[JNewell]

If you make mules only available to forum members and engrave the forum name on the mules it could bring down resale value quite a bit while keeping the original intent of the project.
It would make the mules a bit more expensive but it seems they are too cheap now anyway and it would be immediately clear who only want to flip them.

I think that might be brilliant? :) Or, maybe better than the forum name, engrave the person's actual name. I assume that with today's computer-controlled laser etching that would add only a few bucks to the price of each knife. That would be so much more effective than a serialized number. Resales of CC knives tell us that a random alpha-numeric on the blade doesn't hurt resale value much - but someone's name would be a different matter, I think - both for the seller and for the buyer! :D :D :D What do others think???

[Pinetreebbs]

Two more thoughts, on a 'core charge' and pre-orders:

Since MT blades are for testing and feedback, why not sell the for $225 with a $125 credit to the original purchaser when they submit a unique report on how the new steel functions.

These prices are just suggestions, the idea is like a core charge for a used part returned to be rebuilt except you return a usage report not the old part.

Pre-orders not sure this would not be a total nightmare for Spyderco unless they are non refundable. This would prevent people from changing their minds or getting impatient. Making the purchase transferable to another person might be one 'out' if someone is in a dire financial situation.

Kudos to the lurkers for speaking up.

[paladin]

Releasing on weekdays at 9 really is kind of strange. I am lucky that I can get to a computer at work but many can't. Kind of opens it up to the "self employed" aka flippers we are talking about and maybe provides a barrier to 70% of America that is probably at work. I know not all customers are in America but still, most of your average joes that are supposed to be getting these things are at work.

Keep preaching brother! lol

A fee to join "the Club" could help defray the cost of extra administration the upgraded Mule Team Project would require...maybe even a new person could be hired to join the ranks of the SpyderCrew family of workers

I really like the ideas being hashed out here in a civil manner!

I especially think the ideas by members who have proposed pre-orders with large deposits or total payment due in advance have merit.

A flipper, by nature, lacks the will / fortitude, perhaps even funding to wait half a year for a single Mule much less 6+ blades. The hassle incurred to the flippers for "delayed satisfaction" may even exponentially ripple to their partners in crime further complicating their predatory market habits.

[Revival]

The easiest way to determine who are flipping these are have a serial number on each knife. I think that they should be available for forum members first. If its a run of 500, have numbers of 1-500 listed and allow members to choose their serial code with a thread listing everything. The Esee forum does a great job of this with their limited runs.

[paladin]

the inaugural Mule after Sal revamps the project could be dubbed "The Mule Skinner" :D

[Tally-ho]

I suggest selling just 50 or 100 blades per week over several weeks might give more buyers a chance to purchase.

Sorry but it Will not solve the problem. If there is 700 pieces for 1000 people, during the first run there will be 1000 people for 100 pieces, the second time, 900 people for 100 pieces and maybe more if some people heard that the mule is excellent (like K390 or S100V), 3rd time, 800 or more for 100 pieces, etc. 50 or 100 pieces will sell out very fast during the first runs.

But you right, some people will have more opportunities to order it. The bad point is that it also gives more time/chance for some people to abuse the limitation of 2 by customer.

If the sell is organized during several weeks, at the end there will still be some mule on ebay at the same price than actually and there will still be people complaining that they couldn't order it on the Spyderco webstore.

[Brock O Lee]

If you make mules only available to forum members and engrave the forum name on the mules it could bring down resale value quite a bit while keeping the original intent of the project.
It would make the mules a bit more expensive but it seems they are too cheap now anyway and it would be immediately clear who only want to flip them.

I like this idea!

You actually devalue the knife by engraving it with a name, making it much less attractive for a flipper. Dunno if laser etching would be too easy to remove via sanding, engraving might be more permanent.

[jabba359]

I think that might be brilliant? :) Or, maybe better than the forum name, engrave the person's actual name. I assume that with today's computer-controlled laser etching that would add only a few bucks to the price of each knife. That would be so much more effective than a serialized number. Resales of CC knives tell us that a random alpha-numeric on the blade doesn't hurt resale value much - but someone's name would be a different matter, I think - both for the seller and for the buyer! :D :D :D What do others think???

I'd be willing to pay an extra $10 per Mule to pay for laser engraving my name (real or forum) on them. I think that would make the secondary market much less attractive, as I wouldn't want my knife to have a random stranger's name on it.

[kbuzbee]

I say anyone who really wants a mule, signs up and picks a date. On that date, Sal shows up at their house and the requestor makes him a wonderful meal. At the end of the meal, Sal can present him/her with their mule, personally (and collect payment).

Flippers are not going to want to go though this. The rest of us would kill for the opportunity.

Whaddaya think?

Ken

[TomAiello]

Random idea: allow people you can verify as "real" people (maybe minimum post count here or on BF?, or some more in depth checking) to reserve their MT's in advance, with a higher limit. Then allow general sales after those pre-orders have been filled.

Another way to deal with this would just to be increase the production runs substantially and then raise the prices slightly. A user wouldn't mind much paying $100 instead of $80, for example, but combine that with a much harder flipping environment created by a larger production run would probably discourage flippers.

[grg]

I seem to remember a few of the mules didn't sell out so quick,and you could buy as many as you wanted after a time period,now it seems they sell out quicker with each new release.To me making more would be the simplest solution,,and since they're now so much in demand there's less chance that spyderco would be stuck with a large number of unwanted knives,but theres always the chance that a certain model might mot be as much in demand.

[phillipsted]

I've got another idea - how about turning the Mule Team into a subscription model? A calendar-based subscription might not work because it might put too much pressure on Sal's production queue. How about this: Sign up and pay for a "Series" of 4 Mule knives. Spyderco would then send subscribers the next 4 knives produced over the next 12-18 months. This might impact folks who just want one or two individual knives - but it would give the dedicated folks a guarantee that they could get all the Mules as they were issued.

Just a thought...

TedP

[Blerv]

I like the sub idea with some type of numbering. It doesn't forbid selling but would clearly track the problems. Plus, it would support the comparative testing model Spyderco is attempting to create. I guess they could always email to opt out of a particular knife if that wouldn't be overly taxing to manage.

I've yet to buy one. Many are yet to miss one. Seems people tend to sway one way or another. Maybe this is a gross assumption tho.

[bh49]

I say anyone who really wants a mule, signs up and picks a date. On that date, Sal shows up at their house and the requestor makes him a wonderful meal. At the end of the meal, Sal can present him/her with their mule, personally (and collect payment).
Flippers are not going to want to go though this. The rest of us would kill for the opportunity.
Whaddaya think?
Ken

I love it. I didn't have plans to buy any mote mules, but now I am in for one stainless. :)