Serrata Arrived!

[Invective]

I just noticed the Serrata is up online and in the New Products part of the online catalog!

[BT-Blades]

Wow! Awesome knife! I've been looking for a good fixed blade! :)

[fuzzydog]

When I go online it says it is still "coming"....not yet in stock?

[hunterseeker5]

Stuart, I'm a little curious:

This is quite a short little fixed blade, only 4.5 inches. What do you envision its role being, which would require the durability of almost quarter inch thickness?

[Stuart Ackerman]

It is flat ground, and a distal taper from handle to tip...so I would want as much strength as
possible...without it being a prybar...
The blade is around 32mm wide, so draw a pic and see the blade angle?

When they appear in stores, try and hold one, and it might make sense?

[ABX2011]

Watching that video makes me want one.

[hunterseeker5]

32mm deep edge to spine. A little quick math then. If we assumed zero ground (a little optimistic given that it has an apex bevel) and flat ground that'd make theta equal to arctan(3/32) or 5.36 degrees per side, 10.71 degrees inclusive in flat ground profile.

Just as a quick comparison using the same metrics (assumed flat ground, zero ground, which we also know not to be the case here) the Spyderco Seto 210mm gyuto is also a knife which may not be subjected to significant lateral or impact forces. It is about 46mm deep at its maximum blade depth, and at that point is 2.2mm thick at the spine. (spyderco lists this specification as only 2mm, but in this case I'll defer to what my calipers are telling me) That'd make theta = arctan(1.1/46) or 1.37 degrees per side, 2.74 degrees inclusive for full profile.

That gives the Seto an advantage of roughly 390%, or almost four times better geometry. As we know from Cliff Stamp's rope cutting experiements, apex sharpness can be less than 1/15th of the overall force required to complete the cut, I'd say yes this could be a pretty significant advantage in geometry.

Granted you're right, I might "have to try it," but let me posit this: if both knives were as sharp as physically possible, that is to say a monomolecular edge, which one would you expect to require less force to make the initial cut? How about relatively far into the dulling cycle on a rigid material such as wood or cardboard?

My point is that I have knives of this geometry, thicker, and leaner. The Spyderco Serrata, in the limited way you stated, would have comparable cutting geometry to a SYKCO 911, which is a large fixed blade chopper and mobile prybar warrantied to chew through any obstacle of any material (including youtube cameras) put in front of it. Is it then, in your opinion, reasonable to expect to find the same geometry on a knife which you repeatedly stated is NOT for hard use including batonning and prying? Do you not think a leaner profile would provide significant cutting advantage, while not removing any of its as-stated capabilities?

[Stuart Ackerman]

hunter...here is a link to Cliff's review of a Spyderco Serrata...it might explain better...if not ask me again? BTW, I asked for Sal to send a Serrat to Cliff for an unbaised review...

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthre ... n&p=916341

[hunterseeker5]

hunter...here is a link to Cliff's review of a Spyderco Serrata...it might explain better...if not ask me again? BTW, I asked for Sal to send a Serrat to Cliff for an unbaised review...

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthre ... n&p=916341

Actually Cliff posed exactly the same question, albeit his more open as opposed to mine which was directed at you, as I did:

-the very thick spine poses some interesting questions about scope of work

That said, now that we have the phorum available as a discussion venue, we may continue there as opposed to here if you prefer. (I posed this question open to you, Cliffy, and whoever over there in that thread)

[glbpro]

I finally managed to see one of these in person the other day and loved its looks as well as the simplicity and functionality of the of the design. I have a few questions for Stuart, or anyone else who happens to own one of these knives.

1. What was the reason for the complete absence of a guard? Aesthetics? Better blade control? Prevention of hotspots? Presumably since this is not a fighting knife it will not be used for stabbing into anything where your hand could slide forward onto the blade but when I handled the knife I was still very aware of this.

2. What was the reason for choosing such thick stock for the knife? Was it purely about strength, or does it have something to do with the way the knife is made? When I first picked up the knife I was struck by how incredibly massive the stock was - it reminds me very much of a Japanese-made skinning knife that my father owns.

3. What's the best way to sharpen the steel, given its dendritic structure and inherrent micro-serrations? On the sharpmaker, could you use both grey and white stones, or would you stop at the grey? Also, can you strop the knife as you would other types of steel?

Thanks in advance.

[Stuart Ackerman]

My original pattern was a tad thinner, and the first prototype was a near copy, but the grind at the ricasso was not as rounded as mine...and so the edge was closer to the thumb than I felt safe...this is of course when the knife is held edge up...

It is not an easy grind to copy, and so Sal decided to make the steel thicker at the edge and so move the grind away from the hand and thumb...
I am sending another blank to Sal with my grind on the ricasso area accentuated with a rough grind to show how the abrasives have shaped the plunge line...

As for stabbing...place a decent cut proof glove on the stabbing hand, and with a tight grip, stab into a pile of cardboard, or something with give...a tight grip will help you stay safe..

HOWEVER, all bets are off if you do not hold it tight enough...the grip is shaped to allow you to use the knife safely in normal use , but common sense must be learned...

I recommend 400 grit abrasives to allow the edge to "bite" into the matter being cut...finer grits are okay, but I prefer toothy...
Some folk have sharpened Serratas to razor edges at around 2000 grit finishes and wonder why it does not cut fibrous material...drop to 400 or 600 and see the difference?
I do not strop, as I want the edge to be toothy...but feel free to experiment?

Knives are meant to be tools to be used, and when you stop having fun, and teaching yourself stuff about edges and steel types and grinds etc, well, then it ain't no fun no more...

[Stuart Ackerman]

Oh yes, grey Sharpmaker will be great...but if you want to use the white, and slice paper all day...feel free..

[The Mastiff]

I used to be under the impression that Stuart cast his own steel in small quantities. I have no idea if that is true however it does make me wonder if there is a company that catalogs it, if it's special order only, etc. I obviously don't need names of companies as that is proprietary information but I would like to know how 440C gets into the Spyderco factory or Vendors from ?

We used to have a knifemaker that posted here that used to melt his own steel from powder left over from grinding ( his shops and others). He put it in a can then ground what was left of the can off after melting. It was pretty cool.

Joe

[glbpro]

Thanks for the reply Stuart, really appreciate it. It's great to be able to interact directly with the designers on this forum.

My original pattern was a tad thinner, and the first prototype was a near copy, but the grind at the ricasso was not as rounded as mine...and so the edge was closer to the thumb than I felt safe...this is of course when the knife is held edge up...

It is not an easy grind to copy, and so Sal decided to make the steel thicker at the edge and so move the grind away from the hand and thumb...
I am sending another blank to Sal with my grind on the ricasso area accentuated with a rough grind to show how the abrasives have shaped the plunge line...

Hmm, I didn't try that edge up grip, so perhaps will do so the next time I visit the shop. Presumably if sharpened in the conventional manner the actual edge will begin to creep back towards the ricasso - do you recommend staying away from that area on the stones to prevent that happening?

I saw the pictures where you compared the production version with your custom piece. As you say there are always concessions that need to be made in order to adapt the knife to production - do you think the production knife will be modified after you send this latest blank to them?

As for stabbing...place a decent cut proof glove on the stabbing hand, and with a tight grip, stab into a pile of cardboard, or something with give...a tight grip will help you stay safe..

HOWEVER, all bets are off if you do not hold it tight enough...the grip is shaped to allow you to use the knife safely in normal use , but common sense must be learned...

Well said! Common sense is most definitely required in the use of all tools. Having said that I have no real intention of stabbing your design into anything

I recommend 400 grit abrasives to allow the edge to "bite" into the matter being cut...finer grits are okay, but I prefer toothy...
Some folk have sharpened Serratas to razor edges at around 2000 grit finishes and wonder why it does not cut fibrous material...drop to 400 or 600 and see the difference?
I do not strop, as I want the edge to be toothy...but feel free to experiment?

Thanks for the advice, I have never owned a knife in either 440C or any sort of cast steel, so I'm looking forward to learning a lot. I like stropping just because it doesn't remove any steel, but perhaps your design will lead me down a different path. If the edge on the cast 440c is as durable as you say it is I might end up just using the stones sparingly.

Knives are meant to be tools to be used, and when you stop having fun, and teaching yourself stuff about edges and steel types and grinds etc, well, then it ain't no fun no more...

Well your designs most certainly reflect that - they look ready for use from the get go! Could I ask how your time in the military has affected your designs? Was the short, wide blade what proved the most useful for general utility work when you were in the bush? I'm reflecting on my own experience in the military (two and a half years, and still part of the army reserve) and what was most useful then. We were issued a fairly rubbish folding knife with a wharncliffe-style blade, universally known as 'the jack knife' and I don't think I used it at all during my service - instead I sharpened one edge of my bayonet and used that for all my cutting tasks. This was technically against the rules, it being peacetime, but that was probably the first decent sharpening job I did on anything!

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

[Stuart Ackerman]

Sal knows who casts his steel, and I do not...and I do not need to know...( well I do really , but Sal is the Man with the Gold who makes the Rules... :D )

If Sal likes the blank that I send him, and the maker can duplicate it, then who knows...?

I have used my Spyderco Serrata a fair bit, and it will do as a mainstay tool in the wilds...yes, it could be a tad thinner, but if not, it will do fine...
I have chopped through 2 inch branches, and it does the job...

My time in the military taught me that a good 4 to 5 inch blade is adequate for most use...which is utility, not hand to hand combat...
Trimming branches, making fires, and converting food into bite sized chunks...maybe opening up boxes of assorted types, but never as a lever!

[sal]

We ended up tooling the casting dies twice in an effort to bring the edge down to where it is now.

sal

[Stuart Ackerman]

No worries Sal...
I will send off the blank to you just as an idea...it is in 316 stainless, so it might make a letter opener of sorts...?

[glbpro]

I have used my Spyderco Serrata a fair bit, and it will do as a mainstay tool in the wilds...yes, it could be a tad thinner, but if not, it will do fine... I have chopped through 2 inch branches, and it does the job...

That's good to know - I was going to ask you how the cast 440C handles chopping in that edge geometry. Did you have any edge damage/rolling after the chopping? Presumably this is one area where the really thick stock is a big advantage.

My time in the military taught me that a good 4 to 5 inch blade is adequate for most use...which is utility, not hand to hand combat... Trimming branches, making fires, and converting food into bite sized chunks...maybe opening up boxes of assorted types, but never as a lever!

I would agree with that - we have rifles for combat, thank you very much! I also agree that a shorter blade is often more useful, especially in confined spaces like tents and vehicles, especially moving vehicles!

In my part of the world native tribesmen tend to carry two types of blade - a long, relatively light machete called a parang, which is used mainly for vegetation clearance and agricultural tasks, and another smaller knife called a pisau - this is the utility blade, and is typically about the size of the Serrata, although not of such thick stock.

Looking forward to enjoying your knife!

[glbpro]

We ended up tooling the casting dies twice in an effort to bring the edge down to where it is now.

Thank you Sal for all your hard work in getting these things 100% right. I have never felt the need to reprofile a Spyderco knife out of the box, which certainly cannot be said for knives from some other manufacturers!

[glbpro]

Got my Serrata today! This is my first Spyderco fixed blade and I'm really pleased with and excited about it. It seems to be a bit of a 'sleeper', both on this forum as well as on the internet in general so I thought I'd post some pictures to liven things up a bit Like all Spydercos it is a wonderful example of functional yet beautiful knife art.

Oh yeah:



To me this piece bears a general resemblance to the Temperance 2, although with more flowing lines, aided by the lack of a thumb ramp and the more streamlined handle. The lack of a top hump to me really makes this knife look sleek and deadly - it has the lines of a fast racing yacht or even a navy corvette:



Check out that needle-sharp tip! If you are buying a Serrata this is one area to inspect - in my case there were two in the shop and one had a noticeably off-centre tip. You want to try and find one where the secondary bevel is ground as symmetrical as possible to keep the tip centred. This picture also shows the distal tapering of the blade.



A shot of the butt end - unlike the Temperance 2 this knife is not double distal tapered, no doubt saving much grinding time and cost. The handle is skeletonised under the micarta handle slabs, which yields a balance point right in the index finger choil. The handle slabs are smooth but not polished, giving a grip that is refined yet positive.



A shot of the Spyderhole and steel designation. Note the complexity of the grind around the ricasso - this is one of the areas in which the production model had to be modified over the original design, as described by Stuart in previous posts in this thread.



A shot of the same area on the opposite side of the knife. Note that it says merely 'Taiwan' as it's not made in the same factory as the 'Taichung, Taiwan' spydies.



Here's a shot of the unsharpened area near the heel of the edge - as you can see it's only a very short section and gives that extra measure of safety should your index finger go forward to the end of the choil - I quite like it, as it means I can really choke up on the handle in order to do detail work without having to worry too much about running into that ravenous edge, which we will talk more about later The picture also shows the massively thick stock that the knife is ground from! Note the near perfect symmetry with which the main bevel is ground - impressive quality control there!



Continued in next post due to image limit.