Forged-Steel Spyderco Knives?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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SpyderEdgeForever
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Forged-Steel Spyderco Knives?

#1

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

As far as anyone on here knows, are any of the current or past Spyderco knives made of forged steel, or are they all made using the stock removal processes? Would a forged version of say an Endura or other knives be alot different in overall properties and performance, or would it not make much of a difference?

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#2

Post by SpyderNut »

As far as I know, there haven't been any forged Spyderco models made. Forging generally involves using high carbon steels (i.e. 1095, 1084, 15n20, to name a few) and would likely be too labor-intensive to consider for mass manufacturing and production. There are many custom knifemakers out there who forge blades specifically for folders. I think the closest thing to having a Spyderco with a forged blade would be in the form of one of their damascus bladed models.
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#3

Post by Cliff Stamp »

All steels are forged during manufacturing.

If you mean hammer forging, then no it would not make any difference to the performance of the steel. Kevin Cashen (ABS MasterSmith) has wrote/spoke on this topic for years.
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#4

Post by O,just,O »

Cliff Stamp wrote:All steels are forged during manufacturing.
.
Yes, as are they all ground or stock removed to varying degrees to come to the finnished blade.
O.
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#5

Post by The Deacon »

As already noted, the one that would come the closest would be the Zowada Damascus bladed Worker from the Evolution Set.
Cliff Stamp wrote:All steels are forged during manufacturing.
Even that used in MIM blades, like those for the S and the Bi-Fold?
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#6

Post by rodloos »

What is the difference between "forged" and "cast"? The upcoming Serrata is described as being cast 440C. Does cast mean they actually make a mold of the blade, and pour molten steel into it to shape the blade? What advantages would that give?
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#7

Post by Cliff Stamp »

rodloos wrote:What is the difference between "forged" and "cast"?
To be specific when I noted all steels are forged it was not technically correct, there are steels which are not forged and that is one of them. Those steels are actually used in the as-cast form. The reason why steels are forged (rolled) is to break up the large networks of carbides which will come out of solution as the steel cools. David Boye was the first person to aggressively promote using as-cast steels. He argued that the carbide networks gave aggression cutting action and this along with a similar argument from the people forging dissimilar steels was at one time fairly popular. It has resurfaced recently because some people are making similar arguments about vanadium carbides giving steel cutting ability.

None of this is true except in the extreme sense. You have to keep in mind that sharp edges are actually very thin as in less than 1 micron thick, edges which are 20 microns or so thick can typically be seen by eye and most people will not consider a knife sharp when you can cleary see light reflecting from the edge. Vanadium carbides will cluster in high vanadium steels to the size of about 10 microns, the large carbide networks in as-cast steels can be as large as a mm, 1000 microns. It should be obvious these are too large to themselves provide sharpness/cutting ability.

However if you cut to a very low sharpness, at some point the edge retention will just stabilize and not get lower. This is because the large carbides fracture and tear out and this damage to the edge keeps it from wearing smooth and it will retain a low level of slicing ability for practically forever. However this is a low sharpness, it will not even slice photocopy paper well for example and the steel is very brittle.
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#8

Post by bh49 »

Cliff Stamp wrote:All steels are forged during manufacturing.
For some reason I thought that most of blades in manufacturing are stamped or laser cut out of sheet metal, which is formed, not forged.
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#9

Post by Cliff Stamp »

Sheet stock is formed through a forging process which is both more extensive (in reduction) and much more consistent than hammer forging. From these sheets some knives are made by stamping, some steels can not be easily stamped. It would not be sensible to try to stamp knives form S90V for example, but AEB-L is actually intended for fine blanking.
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#10

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

Thank you everyone, and thank you Cliff! Okay, I hope this is related to this topic: What then does the advantage of some hand-made knives (example: Randalls) have over a high-quality factory knife, when the handmaker claims the hand-forging of their knife steel makes it tougher or more durable. Or is this a myth? That a high-quality control factory made knife (like say a Spyderco Endura or Warrior) can be just as good if not better? PS: I am NOT trying to step on the toes of anyone who is into the above mentioned hand made knives or custom knives in general.
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#11

Post by Blerv »

Better is relative to what you value.

Custom knives you can link to a single maker have a story. They probably have a higher attention to details as those can be afforded via price. In cases like Phil Wilson customs can also be more niche oriented (HIGH HT's, thin geometry, etc).

Arguably most production Spydies excel at separating matter with optimal geometry. The handles are ergonomic first, flashy second. Locks are very strong per application and the costs are quite reasonable for what you get (ie high value).
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#12

Post by Cliff Stamp »

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:...when the handmaker claims the hand-forging of their knife steel makes it tougher or more durable. Or is this a myth?
Yes it is a myth. It actually makes the steel worse and damages it significantly which has to be undone by subsequent thermal cycling to first even out and then refine the grain.

Hammer forging used to be necessary because of limitations in steel production but these are not modern issues aside from living in very restrictive economic conditions. For example many native blades over seas are forged because the steel is essentially free (salvaged springs and similar).

There are also some designs which are very hard to make without hammer forging, for example billhooks can have tapers from 1/2" stock to 1/16" stock. If you don't forge that you have to buy a huge block of 1/2" steel and grind away almost 90% of it to get the pattern.

It also lets you make a knife from steel bits and bobs that otherwise would not be able to a knife from as they are simply not large enough to just grind into a knife. For example 52100 is a ball bearing steel, if you can only get it as ball bearings then you can't easily make a knife from that without hammering it to shape first.

Then you have things like pattern welded steel and similar where forging is used to create very distinctive patterns in the steel, you can't do that with just grinding a bar of steel, you have to mix two bars together.
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#13

Post by SQSAR »

Good insights Cliff. But this brings up a thought. Why does there seem to be, in the custom knife-making world, a sense of elitism inherent to those who forge their blades rather than use stock removal? I have done both, and can appreciate equally the results of both a forged blade and one made via stock removal, but there seems to be, in my mind at least, a pseudo hubris towards those who forge their blades and I do not understand why this is sometimes the case.
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#14

Post by ginsuwarrior »

Seems that those that forge, "worship", for lack of a better word, at the alter of Vulcan -

Image

Image

I could see why this would place inside of one a sense of pride, taking part in the ancient tradition.

Maybe we need a God of Stock Removal? Then those practicing such techniques can be filled with the same pseudo hubris.
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#15

Post by sal »

I guess if there is still an argument for the advantage of the forged blade would be in differential heat treating. This makes it possibe to have a very hard edge and still have a softer tough rather than brittle blade.

sal
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#16

Post by Evil D »

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:Thank you everyone, and thank you Cliff! Okay, I hope this is related to this topic: What then does the advantage of some hand-made knives (example: Randalls) have over a high-quality factory knife, when the handmaker claims the hand-forging of their knife steel makes it tougher or more durable. Or is this a myth? That a high-quality control factory made knife (like say a Spyderco Endura or Warrior) can be just as good if not better? PS: I am NOT trying to step on the toes of anyone who is into the above mentioned hand made knives or custom knives in general.
Better performance wise is highly debatable until you start talking about blades that use a high carbon core hammer forged inside a softer rust resistant outer layer (Murray Carter) but then you have similar steels coming from factories like the 420J2/ZDP-189 and 420J2/Superblue laminates. To me the main allure of hand forged blades is the hand forging itself. The idea that a guy pounded out each blade with a hammer (although some do use power hammers now which is kinda cheating) is what makes it so cool. The tempering process alone is such that one mistake can ruin the blade and force them to start over.
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#17

Post by Mike Blue »

sal wrote:I guess if there is still an argument for the advantage of the forged blade would be in differential heat treating. This makes it possibe to have a very hard edge and still have a softer tough rather than brittle blade.

sal
Hello Sal,

If you refer to differential forging or edge packing, maybe even friction forging, then perhaps. Such methods create a mechanical form of grain reduction where the then hardened edge would have a finer grain structure than the spine of the blade that receives less hammer work.

Most thermal cycling procedures generate a uniform grain size throughout the bar being worked and generally that is more advantageous to blade toughness/strength overall.

I would suggest that the alloy mixtures, specifically manganese content or other alloys that pin the carbides in smaller dimensions would have a greater effect on differential hardening issues than forging by itself. As Cliff has stated, all steel is forged, except those blades specifically cast to produce specific carbide structures. The itty bitty amount of relative hand hammering does not make a significant difference.

Yeah, it's a lot to respond to Sal in my first post, :eek: .
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#18

Post by Blerv »

With alloys like H1 and laminates as David mentioned it seems you can mimic the differential hardening Sal brought up.

I understand the folks at Gransfors Bruks still hand-forge each axe head. I would think the modern techniques might provide similar results. I guess this is similar to the move from laminated/folded and hand forged swords compared to blanks of T10 and what-not.

Like Cliff mentioned introducing more hand work in a way presents more chances for flaws. The fact that amazing tools could made with a clay crucible and hours of pounding is amazing. It's not to say hundreds of years of technology can't produce more consistent results.
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#19

Post by sal »

Hi Mike,

Welcome to our forum. Glad to have you visitn'.

I can't speak of alloys as I've only forged 52100. But after quench where I could get the edge hardenough to resist a file, I would draw temper from the spine, while keeping the edge submerged in water. This permitted the blade to bend.

We've had forged blades under some pretty high magnification comparing, and we have a CATRA which offers numbers.

I love my custom made forged blades for what they are. No illusions about superior performance, other then the geometry they offer.

As mentioned, the grinding and shaprning processes of H1 mimic this differential hardness using mechanical methods.

Now that your here, maybe you can also talk about razors? :p I'm sure we would enjoy the expertise and passion.

sal
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#20

Post by Cliff Stamp »

SQSAR wrote:... a pseudo hubris towards those who forge their blades and I do not understand why this is sometimes the case.
There are odd people on all aspects of knife making, the forging makers don't have an absolute dominance there. Yes there are those who put forged blades at a class above everything else, but other people do the same to knives/makers who use extreme carbide steels, or knives which have extreme levels of being over built.

I think it would be fair to say that some people who forge make blades which are very intricate sure and people can look at them with extreme respect for the work/dedication, but it would be a bit of more than slight ignorance to think that stock removal makers can not make extreme pieces as well in art or function.
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