Chaparral S30V vs CTS-XHP : Will I notice a difference?

ljg · #1

I have a Chaparral in S30V that I am re-profiling it now to 15 dps on the sharpmaker. I will be using it for my usual EDC need - food prep, small medium cutting tasks, wood whittling, zip ties etc.

I am wondering if I would notice a difference if I went ahead and purchased it in CTS-XHP? If the grain size about the same? The Carbide size about the same? Is it about the same in corrosion resistance?

Anyone have both and can compare them? Or anyone know more about the two steels than I do and can chime in?

Thanks,
Leslie

Blerv · #2

You won't tell a difference in use and prob not even in a cutting (or corrosion) test. They are competing steels. XHP relies on larger softer chromium carbides where s30v has smaller harder vanadium ones. Ankerson did a cutting test with two Para2's (I recall) and came to extremely close results.

XHP should be a tad easier to sharpen, especially if you have cheaper stones.

Kudos on the purchase. Let us know your thoughts. :)

Pockets · #3

I didn't understand most of the technical jargon, but Ankerson found that S30V had noticeably better edge retention at (I think) 15dps.

jackknifeh · #4

ljg wrote:I have a Chaparral in S30V that I am re-profiling it now to 15 dps on the sharpmaker. I will be using it for my usual EDC need - food prep, small medium cutting tasks, wood whittling, zip ties etc.

I am wondering if I would notice a difference if I went ahead and purchased it in CTS-XHP? If the grain size about the same? The Carbide size about the same? Is it about the same in corrosion resistance?

Anyone have both and can compare them? Or anyone know more about the two steels than I do and can chime in?

Thanks,
Leslie

I had the S30V Chaparral and now have the Chaparral 2 with XHP. I don't think there is enough difference in the two steels to be able to notice in an EDC knife. The closest thing I ever do to "test" edge retention is cut up a pizza box. I used my Sage4 with S30V and my new Chaparral2 with XHP when I got it. They were sharpened to about the same angle (36 inclusive). I judge the sharpness by how slicing phone book paper feels. The Chaparral cut throught the cardboard a bit easier because of the thinner blade. After slicing up one box each I remember thinking the XHP had retained a little bit more of the sharpness. I DID NOT count how many cuts I made with each knife. I'd say the number of cuts was the same give or take 10%. With no accurate testing method this type test is ok for me. The question is how much difference will either make in EDC. I don't think there's enough improvement in XHP to motivate me to buy another Chaparral of the same model just to get that steel. However, given how much I love the Chaparral knife I can't see why not to buy another anyway. :) If by doing so you get the XHP that's just a plus. It's a great steel IMO also. Both steels are great for my needs and desires. If I were to have to make a decision I'd choose XHP. This is based on my limited, extremely inaccurate testing.

Another consideration. Buying another $100 knife is a lot cheaper than the therapy you may need by worrying about it. :D

Blerv · #5

Thanks for the insight Jack :D . Personal testimony trumps all.

chuck_roxas45 · #6

jackknifeh wrote:I had the S30V Chaparral and now have the Chaparral 2 with XHP. I don't think there is enough difference in the two steels to be able to notice in an EDC knife. The closest thing I ever do to "test" edge retention is cut up a pizza box. I used my Sage4 with S30V and my new Chaparral2 with XHP when I got it. They were sharpened to about the same angle (36 inclusive). I judge the sharpness by how slicing phone book paper feels. The Chaparral cut throught the cardboard a bit easier because of the thinner blade. After slicing up one box each I remember thinking the XHP had retained a little bit more of the sharpness. I DID NOT count how many cuts I made with each knife. I'd say the number of cuts was the same give or take 10%. With no accurate testing method this type test is ok for me. The question is how much difference will either make in EDC. I don't think there's enough improvement in XHP to motivate me to buy another Chaparral of the same model just to get that steel. However, given how much I love the Chaparral knife I can't see why not to buy another anyway. :) If by doing so you get the XHP that's just a plus. It's a great steel IMO also. Both steels are great for my needs and desires. If I were to have to make a decision I'd choose XHP. This is based on my limited, extremely inaccurate testing.

Another consideration. Buying another $100 knife is a lot cheaper than the therapy you may need by worrying about it. :D

Hey Jack, I don't have any chaps but I do have militaries in XHP and S30V. When talking about a fine, polished edge my experience has led me to believe that XHP holds that fine edge a bit longer than S30V. With a coarse edge however, it is hard to tell the difference.

Pockets · #7

Ankerson's test was with coarse edges IIRC.

Holland · #8

I have a chap1 in s30v and a chap2 in XHP and I can't tell the difference

jackknifeh · #9

chuck_roxas45 wrote:Hey Jack, I don't have any chaps but I do have militaries in XHP and S30V. When talking about a fine, polished edge my experience has led me to believe that XHP holds that fine edge a bit longer than S30V. With a coarse edge however, it is hard to tell the difference.

That sounds great. With my poor testing method (pizza box for God's sake :) ) I had the feeling XHP held the edge a bit better but since my testing was so imperfect I didn't really know for sure.

Jack

chuck_roxas45 · #10

jackknifeh wrote:That sounds great. With my poor testing method (pizza box for God's sake :) ) I had the feeling XHP held the edge a bit better but since my testing was so imperfect I didn't really know for sure.

Jack

Jack, that is poor testing method. You should test on the pizza...

DunninLA · #11

I've noticed S30v seems to get taken for granted a lot. When discussing Elmax, XHP, and zdp-189 in particular, it seems people assume the S30v is inferior as regards edge retention. This may be true with a polished edge, and if so, almost negligibly. However, with the course edge most people keep their knives at, s30v is far superior to any of those steels, if at 60 RC. If at 58, OK, they're all just about the same. Plus in regard to ZDP, it is much more corrosion resistant.

Since S30v is so "common" in the Spyderco lineup, it is too often underappreciated vs. XHP, Elmax, and zdp. Familiarity really does lead to contempt, to coin a phrase. s30v is easy to sharpen, gets very sharp, is very corrosion resistant, and keeps a course slicing edge very, very long. Really, what's not to like about it for any user who isn't field dressing an elk or moose and doesn't want to stop to resharpen ... where S90v or 10v or M390's exceptional edge retention might be preferred. Or if you're going to be using it as both knife and mini ax, where M4 would be preferred?

I cannot think of any situation in which XHP, Elmax, or Zdp would make a better edc knife. In the kitchen, OK, zdp.

chuck_roxas45 · #12

DunninLA wrote:I've noticed S30v seems to get taken for granted a lot. When discussing Elmax, XHP, and zdp-189 in particular, it seems people assume the S30v is inferior as regards edge retention. This may be true with a polished edge, and if so, almost negligibly. However, with the course edge most people keep their knives at, s30v is far superior to any of those steels, if at 60 RC. If at 58, OK, they're all just about the same. Plus in regard to ZDP, it is much more corrosion resistant.

Nobody is saying S30V is a slouch. I do think the difference in fine edge retention is not negligible. S30V loses that fine edge fast. We steel heads like to discuss steels and their characteristics. Describing a characteristic is not taking it for granted. And this is coming from person who counts S30V as among his favorite steels.

DunninLA wrote:... However, with the course edge most people keep their knives at, s30v is far superior to any of those steels, if at 60 RC...

Are you saying this from experience?

jackknifeh · #13

chuck_roxas45 wrote:Jack, that is poor testing method. You should test on the pizza...

Gotta be the best blade test method known to man. :)

DunninLA · #14

^zdp and s30v my knives. zdp has rust issues if not carefully maintained. XHP and Elmax from both the chemical composition, and Ankersons smooth and course edge retention posts at bladeforum. There is nothing in the chemical structure of XHP or Elmax that would suggest it would slice (b/c of its carbides) nearly as well as s30v does with it's high % of moly and vanadium.

Oh, and to actually answer OP's question, unless he plans to make hundreds of cuts on 5/8 inch manila rope, no he won't find any difference in practical use.

chuck_roxas45 · #15

DunninLA wrote:^zdp and s30v my knives. zdp has rust issues if not carefully maintained. XHP and Elmax from both the chemical composition, and Ankersons smooth and course edge retention posts at bladeforum. There is nothing in the chemical structure of XHP or Elmax that would suggest it would slice (b/c of its carbides) nearly as well as s30v does with it's high % of moly and vanadium.

And so because ZDP can rust, S30V is far superior to it? By the same token, it would be far superior to K390 then. It would be nice if you make pronouncements from personal experience about steels.

Cliff Stamp · #16

DunninLA wrote:There is nothing in the chemical structure of XHP or Elmax that would suggest it would slice (b/c of its carbides) nearly as well as s30v does with it's high % of moly and vanadium.

I don't follow this claim as the carbide structure of XHP is significantly more coarse than S30V and if you were going to make the argument that carbides produce some kind of cutting ability it would be superior.

DunninLA wrote:However, with the course edge most people keep their knives at, s30v is far superior to any of those steels, if at 60 RC.

How much exactly is far superior? In regards to ZDP-189, do you find that it is superior to S30V in regards to edge retention but just has issues with corrosion?

chuck_roxas45 · #17

jackknifeh wrote:Gotta be the best blade test method known to man. :)

Oooh yah! :D

Pockets · #18

I don't think you cut enough pizzas, Chuck. It's only scientific if you have enough trials!

ljg · #19

Thanks Guys for all of the answers.

So let me see if I've got the summary correct: I probably won't notice a difference between S30V and CTS-XHP in real life.

But S30V will loose it's fine push cutting edge quicker, but will continue with a toothy slicing edge for longer.
If I want to have a a push cutting knife, get the CTS-XHP.

chuck_roxas45 wrote:Nobody is saying S30V is a slouch. I do think the difference in fine edge retention is not negligible. S30V loses that fine edge fast. We steel heads like to discuss steels and their characteristics. Describing a characteristic is not taking it for granted. And this is coming from person who counts S30V as among his favorite steels.

So Chuck, are you saying that the fine push-cutting edge will last longer on CTS-XHP?

Cliff Stamp wrote:I don't follow this claim as the carbide structure of XHP is significantly more coarse than S30V and if you were going to make the argument that carbides produce some kind of cutting ability it would be superior. ?

Cliff, are you saying that CTS-XHP has larger carbides?
Does this mean that I can't take it to as acute edge as S30V (as per your video showing how large carbides prevent acute angles)?
Wouldn't this imply that S30V at more acute angles should push cut better? I am confused.

Oh, and to summarize the seemingly most important part of this thread, I should test knives on lots of pizza! (And probably buy more knives)

Thanks again!
Leslie

jackknifeh · #20

ljg wrote: Oh, and to summarize the seemingly most important part of this thread, I should test knives on lots of pizza! (And probably buy more knives)

Thanks again!
Leslie

Buy more knives AND MORE PIZZA! :)