waved delica reverse grip

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iyn
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waved delica reverse grip

Postby iyn » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Any carries the wave version delica or endure in reverse grip? I 'm a delica and endura fan, but never considered the wave version until I saw it deployed in the reverse grip style. just want to know the pros and cons.

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Blerv
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Postby Blerv » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:57 pm

I suppose you could reverse the clip similar to a P'Kal and draw it that way for an easy reverse grip. It's one less transition. One could also draw it normal and transition to reverse edge out.

It probably depends what you think of the RGEO usage more than the draw.
:spyder: Blake :spyder:

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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:26 pm

Blerv wrote:I suppose you could reverse the clip similar to a P'Kal and draw it that way for an easy reverse grip. It's one less transition. One could also draw it normal and transition to reverse edge out.

It probably depends what you think of the RGEO usage more than the draw.
Agreed. There's just one thing I noticed. Standard wave to the rear is limited when your back is against something. Reverse grip draw to the front is limited when someone or something is in front of you.

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Postby bpeezer » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:37 pm

I like the reverse grip wave possibly even better than the "normal" wave. I don't use my knife in reverse grip for a whole lot of EDC tasks, but then again I don't need wave-speed deployment for EDC tasks so I don't mind switching my grip then.

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Postby Michael Janich » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:31 am

For law enforcement handgun retention, I teach a reverse-grip Wave opening with the non-dominant hand. Officers have a much better success rate in force-on-force training with that than they do trying to open conventional folders in the midst of a struggle.

Stay safe,

Mike
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Postby iyn » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:09 am

Thanks Mike!

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Postby gph » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:15 pm

I use my Endura wave in reverse grip from my back pocket at work. It's not as good as other wave knives I use because of the design of the FRN. While drawing, the side of my thumb rests on the smooth portion where the Spyderco logo is. That combined with the curve pattern in the bi-directional texturing causes my grip to feel insecure because the handle pivots in my hand as the blade waves. I've been looking for a G10 Endura to swap blades with but no luck thus far.

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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:05 pm

gph wrote:I use my Endura wave in reverse grip from my back pocket at work. It's not as good as other wave knives I use because of the design of the FRN. While drawing, the side of my thumb rests on the smooth portion where the Spyderco logo is. That combined with the curve pattern in the bi-directional texturing causes my grip to feel insecure because the handle pivots in my hand as the blade waves. I've been looking for a G10 Endura to swap blades with but no luck thus far.
You might want to put a fob. It helps with grip and retention when waving. Here's a vid I made. It's not very clear but it shows how a fob can help.

[video=youtube;hwN8PZ4gg3E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwN8PZ4gg3E[/video]

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Postby gph » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:01 am

chuck_roxas45 wrote:You might want to put a fob. It helps with grip and retention when waving. Here's a vid I made. It's not very clear but it shows how a fob can help.
I'll give it a try. Thanks

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Postby Studey » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:35 am

chuck_roxas45 wrote:Agreed. There's just one thing I noticed. Standard wave to the rear is limited when your back is against something. Reverse grip draw to the front is limited when someone or something is in front of you.
You can still easily draw the knife, waving it into reverse grip when someone is in front of you. A huge advantage to carrying a waved folder in this way is that it can be drawn upward, and does not need to be drawn dramatically forward. If you have only a small amount of room in front of you, you can draw the knife up. Grip the knife, then draw upward to the center of your chest. It requires very little forward movement.

lyn, in answer to your original question, I've carried a folder like this for a long time, though usually for RGEI employment. It's a very robust method of deploying a folding knife.

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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:42 am

Studey wrote:You can still easily draw the knife, waving it into reverse grip when someone is in front of you. A huge advantage to carrying a waved folder in this way is that it can be drawn upward, and does not need to be drawn dramatically forward. If you have only a small amount of room in front of you, you can draw the knife up. Grip the knife, then draw upward to the center of your chest. It requires very little forward movement.

lyn, in answer to your original question, I've carried a folder like this for a long time, though usually for RGEI employment. It's a very robust method of deploying a folding knife.
And will the person just wait for you to draw? You always want to draw away from an agressor. Have you heard of a technique called fouling a draw? All it really takes to ruin your rhythm is a touch. And you'll be taking a partially open knife out of your pocket.

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Postby Studey » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:47 am

chuck_roxas45 wrote:And will the person just wait for you to draw? You always want to draw away from an agressor. Have you heard of a technique called fouling a draw? All it really takes to ruin your rhythm is a touch. And you'll be taking a partially open knife out of your pocket.
No, they won't. And no, you don't always want to draw away from an aggressor. Drawing away means a much greater distance for the weapon to travel on its way to your attacker, as well as a larger range of motion that is likely easier to intercept. When you draw a pistol, you don't draw it away from an opponent, you draw it straight towards them.

Here is a good video describing the drawstroke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-p4YmUJ4PA His drawstroke is exaggerated out further from the body than it needs to be, for clarity since this is an educational video.

I'm very familiar with fouling draws. If the person is right on top of you, obviously you don't want to be drawing a weapon, that is a time to employ empty hand skills. If someone is right on top of you, aggressively attacking you, drawing away from them isn't going to help anything either. What's important is having a cover of some sort to protect your head to keep you from being knocked out, lowering your base to prevent from being knocked over, and having a solid skillset to use to counterattack. The time that you'll find this forward drawstroke useful is when it comes to in fight weapons access; using grappling skills to open the opportunity to access a weapon, while in contact with an opponent, without them fouling your draw.

\
I have many, many hours in practicing, drilling, and training this material. Your point about someone being able to disrupt your draw is a good one, but not one that is intrinsic or unique to the drawstroke that the OP was asking about.

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Postby kennethsime » Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:40 pm

I carry my M2 on my off-side, front pocket clipped to deploy into reverse grip. It's the smoothest deployment I've ever experienced. I don't claim to know much about self-defense techniques, but I feel drawing in this way is 1) quick and easy, 2) intimidating, 3) sets you up to deliver some damage if you need to. When it comes to the Delica or Endura Wave (and for the most part Emerson also) users, the few people I've talked to tend to prefer this carry position/draw because it allows them to quickly get in and make multiple quick thrusts/stabs, even if someone is up close and/or on top of you.
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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:11 pm

Studey wrote:No, they won't. And no, you don't always want to draw away from an aggressor. Drawing away means a much greater distance for the weapon to travel on its way to your attacker, as well as a larger range of motion that is likely easier to intercept. When you draw a pistol, you don't draw it away from an opponent, you draw it straight towards them.
What does drawing a pistol have to do with drawing a knife?

We are also talking about waving a knife. Explain to me how it is advantageous to wave a knife toward an opponent.

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Postby Studey » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:05 pm

chuck_roxas45 wrote:What does drawing a pistol have to do with drawing a knife?
For starters, commonality of movement and drawstroke.
chuck_roxas45 wrote:We are also talking about waving a knife. Explain to me how it is advantageous to wave a knife toward an opponent.

Because a knife has to make contact with an opponent to hurt them.

The drawstroke that you show in your above fob video is an example of waving the knife forward. That is not the drawstroke I'm talking about. What I'm referring to is a much more vertical drawstroke, similar to what is shown in the video I linked to.

I've pressure tested this method of drawing a waved knife many times, as well as taught and watched others do the same, and found it to be a very robust method, as Mike mentioned above. Drawing any weapon requires either breaking contact with an opponent--distance (in which case, it wouldn't really matter what direction you opened your knife, or even if you used two hands to do it)--or tying up the opponent's limb that is closest to the tool you want to access--grappling skills.

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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:27 am

Studey wrote:For starters, commonality of movement and drawstroke.
I disagree. Drawing a gun from a holster is an entirely different movement from drawing a knife from your pocket. Just think, would you draw a a gun with the tips of your fingers? Also you usually carry a gun IWB, and waved knives are usually carried inside the pocket.

Studey wrote:Because a knife has to make contact with an opponent to hurt them.
Sure, but you don't give then the opportunity to grab the weapon hand or the elbow of the weapon hand before you've fully deployed the knife and secured your grip.

Studey wrote: Drawing any weapon requires either breaking contact with an opponent--distance (in which case, it wouldn't really matter what direction you opened your knife, or even if you used two hands to do it)--or tying up the opponent's limb that is closest to the tool you want to access--grappling skills.
Agreed, which is why I said that you need space. Here it is again.
chuck_roxas45 wrote:Agreed. There's just one thing I noticed. Standard wave to the rear is limited when your back is against something. Reverse grip draw to the front is limited when someone or something is in front of you.
You do seem to be bringing all kinds of arguments into this when all I said in my first post was, you need space in front if you want a draw into a reverse grip and you need space to your back if you want to wave into a forward grip.

There are techniques that can be used to break contact or to create space between an agressor and you, that is a given. But the fact remains that you have do to it to wave effectively whether to a reverse or forward grip.

You also don't have to take my opinion(of the limitations of a "wave" deployment) as a challenge to your preferred style of training. ;)

BTW, I love how you keep using the term "robust". Sure gives it that oh so "tactical" sound. :D

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Postby Studey » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:55 am

chuck_roxas45 wrote:I disagree. Drawing a gun from a holster is an entirely different movement from drawing a knife from your pocket. Just think, would you draw a a gun with the tips of your fingers? Also you usually carry a gun IWB, and waved knives are usually carried inside the pocket.
We'll have to disagree here, as the overall gross mechanics of moving the elbow rearward and driving the hand downward to access a weapon seem very similar to me.


chuck_roxas45 wrote:Sure, but you don't give then the opportunity to grab the weapon hand or the elbow of the weapon hand before you've fully deployed the knife and secured your grip.

Agreed, which is why I said that you need space. Here it is again.

You do seem to be bringing all kinds of arguments into this when all I said in my first post was, you need space in front if you want a draw into a reverse grip and you need space to your back if you want to wave into a forward grip.

There are techniques that can be used to break contact or to create space between an agressor and you, that is a given. But the fact remains that you have do to it to wave effectively whether to a reverse or forward grip.
I don't disagree with this at all. Sound points.

chuck_roxas45 wrote:You also don't have to take my opinion(of the limitations of a "wave" deployment) as a challenge to your preferred style of training. ;)
I haven't seen or heard any challenge. Just sharing my experiences with the aforementioned style of carry and draw asked by the OP.

chuck_roxas45 wrote:BTW, I love how you keep using the term "robust". Sure gives it that oh so "tactical" sound. :D
Thank you. I came to find the term apt after hearing it from an instructor and friend, Paul Gomez, may he rest in peace. According to Merriam-Webster, it means "capable of performing without failure under a wide range of conditions." Paul used the term in exactly that way, to describe techniques that were so effective or simple to perform, it was hard for them to fail. I find robust to be an adjective perfectly suited to describing the types of tactics, techniques, and concepts that I want to embrace; ones that work, without failing, most of the time in most scenarios.


I think we've both hashed out our points, and I think we're in more agreement than disagreement. If you want to continue this one, let's take it to PM.

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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:12 pm

Studey wrote:
I think we've both hashed out our points, and I think we're in more agreement than disagreement. If you want to continue this one, let's take it to PM.
I agree. :D


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