Penknife or other for Germany? Thanks for your help!

[Jes Schuetz]

Hi I'm from Germany originally and want to go back there for some family function. I plan to stay out of trouble but wife and kids don't really have typical German features, if you know what I mean. We might argue how much of a risk that translates too but no matter how much we agree on, it is increased for sure. I am training martial arts since I was 6 and know how to use knifes. therefore I would like to carry one over there for SD.

Anyways, I studied current German knife laws and it boils down to a knife which either opens one handedly or locks the blade. Both features together would be allowed to possess but illegal to carry. Each on its own is fine to carry. I prefer locking over one handed since I can just flick my wrist to open any folder even if its not a "one handed" one.

I have 3 questions:
(1) are there any Spydercos which lock and can not be opened one handedly (no hole or thumbstud)? I plan to still open it one handedly with a flick of a wrist, but pls don't tell the authorities

(2) would it be fine if I just fill the hole of my Matriarch2 with some epoxy and thus rendering it a knife which can not be opened by one hand?

(3) If (based on your feedback) nothing else works I will have to go with the UK Penknife (Pingo is way too small) which does not lock but can be opened one handedly. Which shape opens faster with a wrist flick? Drop Point or Leaf?

Thanks for your help, its highly appreciated.

Jens S.

[amue]

Being from Germany, I can answer your questions as follows:

1. No
2. "can be opened with one hand" is not clearly defined in German law. Some authorities may classify only knives with opening features (stud, hole) as such, while others may not, because there are, in many knives, methods to open them with one hand (opening blade with thumb pressure, etc). So a Matriarch 2 with the hole filled may not be designed to be one-hand-opening, but this is no guarantee an officer might think differently.

Best advice I can give you if you want to be 100% legal:
Get a small fixed blade. You can carry any fixed blade as long as the blade is under 12cm and its not a weapon type knife (dagger, combat knife etc.)

Super logical, right?

[NoFair]

Street beat would be a great choice then :D

[Michael Janich]

If you want to avoid a slipjoint/non-locking folder, a small fixed blade is the way to go. That's what I typically carry every time I go to Germany. In my conversations with the German police I've trained, they admit that the knife law is designed to give them the latitude to take knives away from suspicious people and those with bad attitudes. They don't go looking for tourists with knives, but playing it safe is still a good idea.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Jim Malone]

. In my conversations with the German police I've trained, they admit that the knife law is designed to give them the latitude to take knives away from suspicious people and those with bad attitudes. They don't go looking for tourists with knives, but playing it safe is still a good idea.

Mike

Belgium and France have the same basic law, nothing is really 100% legal, you need a "valid " reason to carry any knife.

[Jes Schuetz]

Thanks guys.
Amue, The clarifications are quite helpful.
Do you know how they define "combat knife"? Would the penknife or street beat be one?

NoFair, The street bea(s)t looks interesting but its a bit too big and concealing fixed blades is a challenge. However the size makes it legal in Germany and it can't fold on my hand while in use.

Michael Janich, I have a couple of fixed neck knifes which I might chose one from.

Jim Malone, Valid reasons... I bet self defense does not fall under that? How about having to cut a seatbelt in an emergency? Clearing my grandma's garden plants? My daughter tends to get splinters (she climbs a lot of trees)? If valid reason is the main problem should one go with a multitool? Hard to find any which cant be opened with on hand

Back to the neck knifes (have to find one which isn't a "combat knife"). They are good but its kind of suspicious when I put my hand under a shirt in a critical situation. Having my hands in my hand pockets the whole time would be less obvious and faster for me.

I think I will get me a Penknife and see how that works.
Which Penknife blade will deploy better with a flick, the leaf or the drop point?

Thanks again.
Jens S.

[amue]

Well the law basically says that you cannot carry weapons in public.
So whether it is legal to carry a certain fixed blade depends on if it is classified as a weapon.

This, too, is not 100% well defined.
Knives that are designed as weapons and/or advertised as such, are always classified as weapons (best example: dagger)
Other dubious features: prominent double finger guard, false edge, dagger-like blade shape.

Even people in Germany are not 100% certain how not to take risks.

[MarcusH]

I think I will get me a Penknife and see how that works.
Which Penknife blade will deploy better with a flick, the leaf or the drop point?

The spring of the discontinued G-10/Titanium/Carbonfiber-UKPKs is pretty stiff, so don't expect them to be opened with the flick of the wrist. The same goes for the current variant of the FRN-UKPK with the stronger split-spring.
Only the older variant of the FRN-UKPK with the softer spring can be opened this way.

cheers,
Marcus

[Commendatore]

The spring of the discontinued G-10/Titanium/Carbonfiber-UKPKs is pretty stiff, so don't expect them to be opened with the flick of the wrist. The same goes for the current variant of the FRN-UKPK with the stronger split-spring.
Only the older variant of the FRN-UKPK with the softer spring can be opened this way.

cheers,
Marcus

Sorry to disagree but the G10 UKPK opens perfectly on a flick of my wrist (at least the Rescue model, CF leaf and G10 drop point are easily opened with a spydie drop). FRN old spring ones are very easy to open (and close!!), no matter if leaf, drop point or rescue!
On the other hand I consider Germany a very safe place, wouldn`t consider taking a blade for SD with me. I would rely on a Kiwi for EDC tasks as it doesn´t lock but has a very stiff action/wouldn´t close per accident.

Hope you enjoy your journey!

[black]

On the other hand I consider Germany a very safe place, wouldn`t consider taking a blade for SD with me.

+1

Being from Germany I think it's really silly to carry a knife here for sd. There are better choices. If there is a "bad guy" I bet he does not care about german knife laws so why do you? As long as you're not running around screaming "I have a big fat knife in my pocket" you are fine, nobody will care.

[Blerv]

I don't think I would carry any knife for the purpose of defense in a country where the laws are extra restrictive. Likely they are that way as a legal backlash to a couple/few incidents hence making them more sensitive to violence from bladed tools. Luckily in the USA it's just as illegal to "carry a knife for SD" but guns take the majority of the spotlight.

I would carry a Honeybee or Grasshopper as it's cheaper to forfeit if questioned. Get a mini-maglite and put it in your coat. Practice your surprised/startled face if you have to use it. :p

[Jes Schuetz]

Thank you Amue,
since its not clearly defined yet I don't want to be the case who becomes a precedent in a court :p

Thanks MarcusH and Commendatore,
Maybe it's best if I try them in a store, if they let me.
Germany is very safe. So is driving on the Autobahn. Still good to have an airbag.

Thank you Black
Im not concerend with one bad guy. Its more like 3 or 4 bald nutzie guys in army boots if you know what I mean. They usually have no issue with me but my wife and kids don't look German. Still improbable that something happens but for sure more likely than with me traveling alone.
What are better choices for SD in Germany? Pepperspray? I heard telescopic batons are legal and can be carried as long as you are 18 or above (except on public events).

Thanks Blery
How would I use the minimaglite? Just like an unpointed kobutan? Then I feel better empty handed since I know striking and grappling martial arts. A knife in my hand also limits my possibilities of grappling but a knifes effectiveness far outweigh these limitations.
I also dont mind forfeiting a $100 knife, since police checking people happens very rarely and just in case I need to use it I would like the best possible legal knife. I want it legal to avoid prison. I know its unlikely to go to jail but if I have to it would make it hard to take care of my family.

[Jim Malone]

OC is sold freely as a dog detterent. I think you are unreallistic about the whole race thing. Germany is a multiculturale country with a lot of colours on the street. Millions of german citizens don't look like the übermensch, and attacks are very VERY rare . Your family beeing targeted by skinheads is slim to none IMHO. An asp will get you in trouble with the law,even when officially legal, and won't deter a bunch of skins if they wanted to hurt you.

[NeverEnough]

would not carry any knife other then a sak classic ... many countries in europe have incredibly strict knife laws.in 2008 was found carrying a kershaw groove(3.5 inch locking blade) in london.lets just say the consequences were extremely harsh...i could not believe it.

[Freman]

A locking, but not one hand opening knife like the Buck 110 (probably in paperstone) might be a better option. Apparently you can pinch the blade and "spydy drop" to open it anyway.

However, as said, if you can carry a fixed blade knife then by all means carry a fixed blade knife.

Reason to carry a knife? Food preparation, cutting sandwiches and fruit and that sort of thing.

If I were in the UK I'd only carry a Swiss Army Knife though (probably a Compact), as even the 91mm have a sub 3" non-locking blade so they should be okay.

[endgame]

100% street beat. Best small fixed blade around

[Jes Schuetz]

OC is sold freely as a dog detterent. I think you are unreallistic about the whole race thing. Germany is a multiculturale country with a lot of colours on the street. Millions of german citizens don't look like the übermensch, and attacks are very VERY rare . Your family beeing targeted by skinheads is slim to none IMHO. An asp will get you in trouble with the law,even when officially legal, and won't deter a bunch of skins if they wanted to hurt you.

Thank you Jim for painting such a nice picture of my home country.
It might hold true in metropolitan cities and at sights like Neuschwanstein, but thats not were we are going.
We will be in some rural area in East Germany. There you can meet quite dangerous people, even when just going to the village supermarket. Youngsters without hope for jobs, more aggressive than average and influenced by some right wing rabble rousers.
I know whole houses and apartment complexes being burned because Romanien Gypsis lived there. An African guy in Potsdam got beaten into a coma. Indian guys where attacked by a large crowd in Saxony. An Indian woman who is the wife of a christian priest got called names and was being spit on by other ladies in a bakery (just 25 miles from where I live). Their mixed race kids got beaten up in school and were called monkeys. A Neonazi group from my state shot many Turkish people all over Germany for a couple of years, and so on. It doesn't even stop at race. A (wimpy and not aggressive) friend of mine got one of his front teeth kicked out when lying on the ground because he was from the wrong part of Germany. I got attacked by three guys because I was riding my bicycle to close to a "Burschenschafts"house.
Every country has its violence as my Chinese coworkers had to experience in some village restaurant in Indiana. If you are different or do the wrong things you are more likely to attract more of the violent potential than "normal" people. Thats just how it is. Knowing that I can try to be prepared at least.

I also don't plan to deter any Neonazis which want to hurt my family. Deterring would mean showing them a weapon and hoping that they flee. Not very likely as you said. Why would I give up the element of surprise? Once they see my weapon or skills the first one should be injured already. I don't plan to hesitate I'm doing martial arts since 28-29 years and had some real life experiences along the way. As long as they haven't drawn any weapons my chances are not that bad. If I wait for them to get ready then its too late for sure.
Anyways I don't mind to get in legal trouble after successfully defending myself. (if its unsuccessful nobody can blame me for excessive force anyways) I think hurting some with a weapon will always be preferable then becoming a victim and in the worst case even die. "Better judged by 12 than carried by 6"

Knifes are nasty and almost impossible to defend against without another weapon (dont trust martial arts instructors who tell you otherwise). Knife wounds are horrible and if I would be on the receiving end I would just run like **** (as long as my family is not in danger). Way more scary than CS/OC or maglites.

[Blerv]

Thanks Blery
How would I use the minimaglite? Just like an unpointed kobutan? Then I feel better empty handed since I know striking and grappling martial arts. A knife in my hand also limits my possibilities of grappling but a knifes effectiveness far outweigh these limitations.
I also dont mind forfeiting a $100 knife, since police checking people happens very rarely and just in case I need to use it I would like the best possible legal knife. I want it legal to avoid prison. I know its unlikely to go to jail but if I have to it would make it hard to take care of my family.

I mentioned the Mini-Mag mostly as it's easily and cheap to obtain, the Maglite XL50 might be another consideration. It has enough steel (well, aluminum) to be used as a fist load but due to the appearance I think the argument of improvised panic defense would be easier to sell. There are plenty of other lights out there but for sake of being a boring civilian I would avoid heavily crenelated "tactical" bezels.

Frankly if you were in a situation where you had to use a knife to save yourself and/or your family any legal situation would be worth dealing with. If you would be just as comfortable with a small flashlight, and don't have one, I would pick one out. Besides clobbering they are extremely handy.