What can we expect from the CBBL polymer?

[Marc the Knife]

After browsing the usual online mishmash of info, reading people's defenses of the CBBL (and a few disappointments in it, justified or not), and after paying close attention to Sal's comments (when I could find them), I came across this fascinating .PDF about PEEK, a polymer used for ball bearing cages in industrial/hellish applications.

http://www.skf.com/binary/12-32271/PEEK ... 372_EN.pdf

Of course I don't want to pry proprietary info out of Spyderco, but I would like to ask any online Powers That Be, and people who've used the CBBL for a while (a year or more) if we can expect, from our CBBL polymer, similar strength, wear resistance, longevity, solvent resistance, etc., to those of PEEK described in the above link. More disclosure about what we can expect--and for how long--out of Spydie's BBL polymer might do a lot to relieve any doubts about the CBBL.

In any case ... Somewhere Sal has written that (I paraphrase) calling the CBBL's polymer a common plastic is an injustice. If Spydie's polymer is similar to PEEK, then Sal seems to have a talent for understatement.

[mattman]

Edited.
Thanks!

[BilMacGil]

Thanks for the PEEK flyer!

[peacefuljeffrey]

I haven't ever seen (but then, I haven't ever looked for) any horror stories about failure of the polymer cage on the CBBL.
What stories are around? I want very very much to have complete faith in the CBBL.

In all honesty, I really would prefer my favorite Spyderco, the Manix 2 XL, to have a pure Ball Bearing Lock (just like the Poliwog or D'Allara). I wouldn't have any need to worry about any plastic failures.

Is it agreed that if the plastic cage on a CBBL were to break, the knife would be essentially useless? I ask because although I have never disassembled one, I don't imagine that the BBL lock at its core would function without it. Is that correct? Would the ball even remain in position?

[Marc the Knife]

Horror stories? Hysteria? Language like this makes you a contributor, no matter how much civility it's cloaked in. (I've read your other posts... )

My original posts expressed, in my opinion, reasonable doubts and fair questions. I've edited many of those posts as I've learned more about the CBBL. I'm still trying to get answers, and I think that's fair.

I'll take my skeptical civility over personal attacks anytime.

[BilMacGil]

Thanks for the new word as well ....."Tribology is the science and engineering of interacting surfaces in relative motion. It includes the study and application of the principles of friction, lubrication and wear. Tribology is a branch of mechanical engineering and materials science."

[Marc the Knife]

@ Peacefuljeffrey:

Lest I be accused of causing a panic, I'll just say that I, too, "very much want to have complete faith in the CBBL," as complete as reasonably can be expected from something featured on so-called MBC/hard-use knives. If you search for the stories, you'll find them. I cannot vouch for their trustworthiness, but I can't say they're BS either. If Sal has specifically addressed these incidents (whether they really happened, why, what's been done to fix any *alleged* problems, etc.), I apologize for being ignorant of his responses. Again, any ignorance on my part is what I hope this thread will correct.

[JNewell]

After browsing the usual online horror stories, reading the sometimes heated defenses of the CBBL, and paying close attention to Sal's comments, I came across this fascinating .PDF about PEEK, a polymer used for ball bearing cages in industrial/hellish applications.

http://www.skf.com/binary/12-32271/PEEK ... 372_EN.pdf

Of course I don't want to pry proprietary info out of Spyderco, but I would like to ask any online Powers That Be, and people who've used the CBBL for a while (a year or more) if we can expect, from our CBBL polymer, similar strength, wear resistance, longevity, solvent resistance, etc., to those of PEEK described in the above link. More disclosure about what we can expect--and for how long--out of Spydie's BBL polymer might do a lot to quell online hysteria.

In any case ... Somewhere Sal has written that (I paraphrase) calling the CBBL's polymer a common plastic is an injustice. If Spydie's polymer is similar to PEEK, then Sal seems to have a talent for understatement.

I have to agree with Mattman. I really think you've grossly overstated "the usual online horror stories...heated defenses...online hysteria." The polymer cage has proven to be both a non-issue, both in terms of actual service in use and in terms of marketing. More info is always interesting, but there's no real need for it in terms of the situation you're imagining.

@ Peacefuljeffrey:

Lest I be accused of causing a panic, I'll just say that I, too, "very much want to have complete faith in the CBBL," as complete as reasonably can be expected from something featured on so-called MBC/hard-use knives. If you search for the stories, you'll find them. I cannot vouch for their trustworthiness, but I can't say they're BS either. If Sal has specifically addressed these incidents (whether they really happened, why, what's been done to fix any *alleged* problems, etc.), I apologize for being ignorant of his responses. Again, any ignorance on my part is what I hope this thread will correct.

You're definitely not causing a panic, you're imagining one. The Manix2 has been out for what, five, six years? My idea of a non-issue issue is Axis springs, and even those stories vastly outnumber reports of problems with the CBBL cage.

[Marc the Knife]

Haha ... Uh, yeah. I majored in English, not engineering. That PEEK article was a stretch for me.

[mattman]

not a personal attack.

just pointing out that an otherwise civil request for information that contains inflammatory language is going to taint the responses right out of the gate. ..

[Marc the Knife]

I really think you've grossly overstated "the usual online horror stories...heated defenses...online hysteria." The polymer cage has proven to be both a non-issue, both in terms of actual service in use and in terms of marketing. More info is always interesting, but there's no real need for it in terms of the situation you're imagining.

Okay, I can see your point. I apologize for being too loose with my rhetoric. I had meant to direct my sarcasm at the more-heat-than-light stuff generated here and on BladeForums. I do not mean to contribute to the heat: I'd rather get enlightening answers from knowledgeable folk. But I suppose that stepping on a few toes and earning myself some heat is the nature of this online beast--for which I blame myself as much as anybody.

[Marc the Knife]

not a personal attack.

Yeah, given what JNewell pointed out, I'd have to agree. Again, sorry. Rather than starting off my thread as I did, I might simply have said, "Given the confusing info/misinfo I've gathered online ..."

I think I'll do just that ... *puts on editor's hat*

[mattman]

Yeah, given what JNewell pointed out, I'd have to agree. Again, sorry. Rather than starting off my thread as I did, I might simply have said, "Given the confusing info/misinfo I've gathered online ..."

I think I'll do just that ... *puts on editor's hat*

Awesome, thanks for seeing through my curt reply, and considering it on its merits.

BTW, Welcome to the forums, and in light of my first response to your first post, I hope you stay around!

[Marc the Knife]

Is it agreed that if the plastic cage on a CBBL were to break, the knife would be essentially useless? I ask because although I have never disassembled one, I don't imagine that the BBL lock at its core would function without it. Is that correct? Would the ball even remain in position?

I have not gotten an answer to your question from a reliable source. My answer would only reflect my own inspection of the CBBL, which I've made without taking the knife apart. It does *seem* that the polymer cage is what keeps the ball inside the scales and liners. But if Spydie's polymer is even approximately like the PEEK polymer, we're better off than we would be with just about any cage material I can imagine. Short of ... I dunno, mithril?

[Marc the Knife]

BTW, Welcome to the forums, and in light of my first response to your first post, I hope you stay around!

It's cool, mattman. I love learning ... which, more often than not, means making an @ss of myself, apologizing, and--I hope--going to bed a bit better informed than when I woke up. I appreciate your patience and everyone else's.

[wsdavies]

Personally, I love and trust the cbbl. All my various Manix knives function flawlessly and open silky smooth like glass. At the same time, I don't abuse my knives. I love that you can one hand open them by wedging the heel of the knife against your palm and draw the lock back and swing them open. I wish they'd use the cbbl in more Spyderco models.

[Marc the Knife]

Personally, I love and trust the cbbl. ... At the same time, I don't abuse my knives.

That Spyderco chose the CBBL for the P'kal indicates supreme confidence in the lock, beyond thresholds you might consider abuse. I see many reasonable people jump into these kinds of threads and protest (more or less correctly) that knives are for cutting, you can't abuse something and expect it not to fail, etc. If BBL knives such as the P'kal and black Manix2 XL weren't marketed for tactical/MBC/hard use applications, I'd generally agree with these voices of moderation (and Tool Respect). But once a knife gets stuck with the hard use/tactical/MBC tag, well ... that's when the things get funny, and the debate becomes a matter of whether a knife will reasonably operate in worst case scenarios rather than merely in normal use (whatever "normal" is).

*Shrug*

[donutsrule]

My P'kal, bought when they were first released, is still going strong.

[donutsrule]

Okay, I can see your point. I apologize for being too loose with my rhetoric. I had meant to direct my sarcasm at the more-heat-than-light stuff generated [snip].

Sarcasm/snark is often misunderstood in online communication. Best to avoid it unless it's obvious to all involved. I've goofed on this one in the past, myself.

[Marc the Knife]

Good to read, donutsrule. Have you put your P'kal through any unusual paces? (Though I'm not really sure what we'd consider "unusual" for an MBC knife ... opening packages maybe?) :)