Blade thickness to self defence ratio

[Donut]

I always find these topics about self defense interesting and funny to a certain degree.

Not to go "you need to walk a mile in my boots", but whenever I read or hear someone
say what they would do or wouldn't do, it generally means that they never have had to.

I hear you, there are a number of posts in this thread where people are very vague. Maybe two sentences into their post I get the idea that they are part of the crowd that thinks they'll pull a knife, stab once, and the guy will fall over or just poof altogether.

I almost think that I could pre-lude every post, in honor of the holiday inn express commercials, "I've never ____, but I (and fill in something random that might qualify me on the internet to have a valid opinion)." For this thread it would go something like, "I've never actually had to defend my life against someone that attacked me with a knife or a gun, but I do have Doc Snubnose added as a friend on the forum."

[Blerv]

In general a predator (at least a good one) will have the element of surprise. Based on occupation they will also have training and perhaps tools at their disposal.

While fighting back is a logical necessity I think people often miscalculate what it really means regarding intensity needed and the effects of their hits/tools. Really, their folder deployment Youtube videos should include someone simultaneously punching them in the head with boxing gloves.

[StuntZombie]

Honestly, I put knife right in the same category as bare hands. The main difference is the knife is almost always categorized as deadly force, while use of your hands may not. But both of them require me to get way too close to someone in order to do any real harm. Getting close to an attacker is the last thing I want to do.

Besides, if we go by real world rules, rather than movie rules, you're more than likely already facing someone with a weapon out, be it a gun or a knife. Unless you've gotten your draw down to a split second, reaching for your weapon may be the last conscious thing you do before you're flat on your back and bleeding. Also, it seems most articles I've read on violent attacks read the same way. The victim was attacked, robbed, and injured before they even had a chance to react.

And it looks like Blerv beat me to it.

[Donut]

I was watching a youtube video of someone teaching some stuff... He suggested to notice when things weren't right, and to strike first and strike while the person is mid sentence.

[Freman]

Because someone had to do it.

Best form of self defense? Don't be there.
Second? Run.
Third? Have a pistol, legal or not, and practice, practice, practice putting a bullet into a man sized target as fast as possible. Remember there is no "shoot to wound".

And seriously, I don't rate my chances in any sort of fight involving weapons, especially with someone who makes their living out of taking other people's money.

[video=youtube;W09ghiWskUk]https://youtu.be/W09ghiWskUk[/video]

[StuntZombie]

I was watching a youtube video of someone teaching some stuff... He suggested to notice when things weren't right, and to strike first and strike while the person is mid sentence.

"Hey man, give me...(SLICE!)...Dude! I just wanted you to give me the time!"

[mrphotoman]

I was watching a youtube video of someone teaching some stuff... He suggested to notice when things weren't right, and to strike first and strike while the person is mid sentence.

Sounds like a fantastic idea.

[polyhexamethyl]

no offense,

i was born in germany and raised in austria and i don't have to expect people jumping out of the bushes and mugging me or worse. or at least we don't expect that.
we've a pretty strict gunlaw so there's a really small probability that someone pulls a gun on you.
i currently live in the US so i really like this country, but sometimes i think a lot of people are just overreacting and a lot don't know what they're talking about, when it's about defending yourself with a knife!

a friend of mine is a nurse in panama city and i saw pictures of a guy who was the "winner" of a knife fight!
a lot of stitches!

running is first choice
second is a Pepperspray or similar

i really like the civilian, but i never saw a reason to get one.
just too expensive.
maybe i'll get myself a M2 ---> decent priced crazy looking cardboard slicer! :D

peaceful greetings!

[Michael Janich]

I've been training in the martial arts and self-defense (often two vastly different topics) for more than 35 years. I got interested in knife tactics while learning counter-knife tactics during the study of my first martial art. At slow speed, they worked great. When we amped things up to make them more realistic, they fell apart. When I asked my instructor why our counter-knife techniques sucked, he told me: "If you want to learn how to defend against a weapon, first learn how to use it." That made a lot of sense and was the beginning of my life-long study of knives and knife tactics.

When I worked for the U.S. government overseas, even though I was assigned to diplomatic missions I was not allowed to own or carry a gun. Nevertheless, my job required me to travel alone to some pretty nasty areas. Given the circumstances, my limited options, and the cultures of the countries where I traveled, the knife became my primary defensive weapon.

Since I typically carried a folder (and still do), I invested a lot of time and practice to learn how to deploy it quickly. I also acknowledged that if I were attacked suddenly, I'd have to use empty-hand skills to stay alive long enough to "earn" the right to draw and open my knife. I practiced those diligently as well.

Fortunately, I have never been forced to cut someone in self-defense. However, I have been in a number of situations where the ability to draw my knife quickly and confidently--as well as the readiness to use it once it was out--made all the difference.

The system of knife tactics that I currently teach is based on years of study and analysis, including extensive analysis of human antomy and its vulnerability to the types of knives we actually carry. The system, Martial Blade Concepts (MBC) and its focus on stopping power through biomechanical targeting has been taught to and reviewed by dozens of medical professionals, including trauma surgeons who are staff instructors for the International School of Tactical Medicine. Based on their assessment of its tactics, it is medically sound.

I have also had students of the system actually have to use it in self-defense. I am very relieved and grateful to say that it worked as intended for them.

While I enjoy and appreciate discussions like this, they are often clouded by cliches, speculation, and a lack of clear context. If you want to know what you can realistically do in self-defense, I encourage you to train diligently. That's the only way to determine what you, your knife, or any other weapon(s) you choose to carry can really do under stress.

Stay safe,

Mike

[BAL]

While I enjoy and appreciate discussions like this, they are often clouded by cliches, speculation, and a lack of clear context. If you want to know what you can realistically do in self-defense, I encourage you to train diligently. That's the only way to determine what you, your knife, or any other weapon(s) you choose to carry can really do under stress.

Stay safe,

Mike

Thanks Mike for taking the time to respond. Your last paragraph cut right to the bone.

[chuck_roxas45]

Yes, it's often the guys who don't train who shout the loudest that knives are lousy for SD....

[GoodEyeSniper]

I used to be very confident in my self preservation tactic of talking your way out of it, and if that fails RUN RUN RUN. I'm not ashamed to say I have used both, and was deceptively fast for a white guy :p

unfortunately I broke my knee this year and running is a physical impossibility now. I don't have much of a fall back now, so I actually have started to think of my Edc knife in a self defense role, granted this isn't a main thought about it. however the bad knee also means I have lost dexterity and power, so the knife is probably an even worse choice than before...

[anagarika]

I too have had knee injury and on both (different occasions). Currently, situational awareness is what I rely on.

Mr. Janich, what do you think of mercop's IET for people that have mobility issue such as knee injury?

Living thousands of miles away, I'm keen to understand the concept to be incorporated to the training I do.

[Rex G]

I sought knife training, in order to better understand how a blade might be used against me, on my cop job, or otherwise. Unless duty compels me to make a stand, Plan A is to create some distance, right quickly, if practicable! If I am with family, or another vulnerable person, that might mean something else is necessary, but my kid is now grown, thankfully, and he is likely to be carrying a handgun under the provisions of the Federal LEOSA, anyway.

If the "something else" that I mentioned above becomes necessary, and I am carrying a handgun, I will likely be doing what my teacher, SouthNarc, terms "shooting from the #2" while changing positions in creatively aggressive directions. If without a handgun, well, same thing, except for the shooting part. Either way, this allows my family members to remember that their job is to use the Nike Defense, to create their own distance, or perform another applicable response. (I can actually carry a handgun, legally, more places than I can carry a seriously large knife; regardless, we must learn to think beyond our weapons.)

Anyway, don't listen to my senile rambling! Pay attention to Michael Janich's post! :)

[defenestrate]

What Mike said. I'd like to add that even if you vow to never pull a knife for self-defense that training on their defensive uses will still give you an advantage in terms of muscle memory and basic technique. In real-life attack scenarios, you are liable to act more slowly and with less coordination, but often times, so will the attacker. In any case, training for SD in general and particularly with and against hand weapons can make a serious difference in your chances for survival/getting away with no major injuries.

[Scottie3000]

Lots of good info and opinions in this thread. It seems to me that a thin blade would be ideal if you consider a knife for SD. I base that on how scary a thin wharncliff would be (example: a replaceable utility blade knife like http://m.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Folding- ... /100020658 )

[BAL]

Lots of good info and opinions in this thread. It seems to me that a thin blade would be ideal if you consider a knife for SD. I base that on how scary a thin wharncliff would be (example: a replaceable utility blade knife like http://m.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Folding- ... /100020658 )

I don't know, the Yojimbo 2 is a thick wharnie and as good as it gets for SD.

[picobrain]

I'm interested in the original question of how the thickness of the knife might be relevant if the knife ends up being used in an emergency situation. In every day use we would'nt expect the knife to be subjected to lateral impacts, but you could imagine various scenarios where a knife might be subject to violent impacts at odd angles, for example contacting a stick, bone or other improvised obstacle.

[Sonny]

The chances of someone pulling a gun in Canada is very remote.

The chances of someone pulling a gun in Canada..and you finding out about it...is very remote. Lots of dump sites in that wilderness up there.
Sonny

[Blerv]

I'm interested in the original question of how the thickness of the knife might be relevant if the knife ends up being used in an emergency situation. In every day use we would'nt expect the knife to be subjected to lateral impacts, but you could imagine various scenarios where a knife might be subject to violent impacts at odd angles, for example contacting a stick, bone or other improvised obstacle.

People criticized the Yojimbo and Civilian for that. The thing they didn't consider is how soft the target is and how many of them they had to deal with (ie probably 1).

Perhaps not the best knives for the zombie robot t-rex apocalypse but if people rarely realize they are cut until AFTER the confrontation I doubt a snapped tip is going to change things much.