CTS - XHP Vs. ZDP - 189

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LC Kid
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CTS - XHP Vs. ZDP - 189

Postby LC Kid » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:22 pm

Hi Folks!


I don't know if this had been discussed before.

I was curious about a comparison between CTS - XHP Vs. ZDP - 189, related to how will them hold a fine edge, let's say something like 30 - 28 - 26 degrees inclusive
:) And I mean that edge against regular use, something like cutting printer paper, envelopes, plastic tie wraps, cardboard, some food prep and also some wood whittling and carving.

- Are these steels good for such tasks holding that fine edge for a long time?

- Or it will be better to put a default 40 degrees inclusive?

- Wich one of them will perform better?
:rolleyes:
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kbuzbee
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Postby kbuzbee » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:17 pm

26° will cut better than 40° (by a lot ;) ) but be more fragile if you torque, hit something hard, etc. At the lower angles i'd expect ZDP to hold it's edge longer but be more fragile than XHP. At the higher angle I'd guess they would be "about" the same degree of fragile but the ZDP should still hold it's edge longer.

Ken

(caution - no testing was involved in the forming of this opinion ;) )
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Blerv
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Postby Blerv » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:12 pm

My guess is with Ken. Not sure but it sounds like it :) .
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Postby Scottie3000 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:32 pm

I have experienced the opposite. At low angles, ZDP seems to be in it's prime. I think it's a waste to run ZDP at 40 degrees. XHP does well but I've found it is prone to rolling and needs a microbevel at or under 25 degrees (ish).
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Blerv
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Postby Blerv » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:57 pm

Scottie3000 wrote:I have experienced the opposite. At low angles, ZDP seems to be in it's prime. I think it's a waste to run ZDP at 40 degrees. XHP does well but I've found it is prone to rolling and needs a microbevel at or under 25 degrees (ish).
Actually, you guys kinda agreed.
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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:57 pm

Scottie3000 wrote:I have experienced the opposite. At low angles, ZDP seems to be in it's prime. I think it's a waste to run ZDP at 40 degrees. XHP does well but I've found it is prone to rolling and needs a microbevel at or under 25 degrees (ish).
I have the same experience. I'd also add that cutting soft media(cardboard, paper, packaging, even cardboard), XHP is no match for ZDP. But I have to cut wood, zip ties, hard plastic like those bushing things, I find that XHP outlasts ZDP even when both are at 36/40.

At low angles like 22° or even 22/30, cutting paper, cardboard, meat(in the kitchen, what did you expect? :D ). ZDP is a boss. ZDP does take more damage when hitting bones and other hard material.

Oh, I'd hasten to add that these are all my subjective experience.

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Postby JD Spydo » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:55 pm

chuck_roxas45 wrote:I have the same experience. I'd also add that cutting soft media(cardboard, paper, packaging, even cardboard), XHP is no match for ZDP. But I have to cut wood, zip ties, hard plastic like those bushing things, I find that XHP outlasts ZDP even when both are at 36/40.

At low angles like 22° or even 22/30, cutting paper, cardboard, meat(in the kitchen, what did you expect? :D ). ZDP is a boss. ZDP does take more damage when hitting bones and other hard material.
First of all Chuck I'll go on record as saying that I do like ZDP-189 blade steel a lot>> it is one of my favorites for sure and in my top 7 for sure. However I sort of respectfully disagree with you on the XHP issue because my Military XHP has performed very impressively. It has done much better than the standard issue S30V by a long way IMO. I'm looking forward to test driving many of the Carpenter steels in the future. And I do dearly love S90V, S3V along with M-4 from the good folks at CPM. But you're not the only one I've heard say that XHP isn't that good or was disappointing. Maybe I got lucky and got one out of good heat treat batch or something like that?? >> but XHP has impressed me in the past year.

l
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Postby BigBill5953 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:26 am

JD Spydo wrote:First of all Chuck I'll go on record as saying that I do like ZDP-189 blade steel a lot>> it is one of my favorites for sure and in my top 7 for sure. However I sort of respectfully disagree with you on the XHP issue because my Military XHP has performed very impressively. It has done much better than the standard issue S30V by a long way IMO. I'm looking forward to test driving many of the Carpenter steels in the future. And I do dearly love S90V, S3V along with M-4 from the good folks at CPM. But you're not the only one I've heard say that XHP isn't that good or was disappointing. Maybe I got lucky and got one out of good heat treat batch or something like that?? >> but XHP has impressed me in the past year.

l
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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:42 am

JD Spydo wrote:First of all Chuck I'll go on record as saying that I do like ZDP-189 blade steel a lot>> it is one of my favorites for sure and in my top 7 for sure. However I sort of respectfully disagree with you on the XHP issue because my Military XHP has performed very impressively. It has done much better than the standard issue S30V by a long way IMO. I'm looking forward to test driving many of the Carpenter steels in the future. And I do dearly love S90V, S3V along with M-4 from the good folks at CPM. But you're not the only one I've heard say that XHP isn't that good or was disappointing. Maybe I got lucky and got one out of good heat treat batch or something like that?? >> but XHP has impressed me in the past year.

l

Hey JD, I'm sorry I gave the impression that I don't like XHP. It's one of my favorite steels and I like it better than ZDP. ZDP may hold an edge better in some applications(soft media cutting). I think that ZDP needs to be taken down to low angles to perform but it also becomes prone to edge damage, IMHO, at these low angles and I need to kind of watch what I'm cutting. I do prefer XHP as an all around steel in an EDC knife that I may use roughly, over ZDP. One thing about ZDP that I dislike is that it is just so-so in 30-40 degree inclusive bevels(well, for me anyway). At 30-40 degree bevels, I find that XHP is much more useful to me. Easy to get that fine edge on and at those angles, it holds that fine, shaving edge longer than ZDP in my experience. One of my most carried knives is my XHP millie(which I recently got a backup for :D ). I still haven't used my orange para though but it's there because I love the steel. The first few weeks I carried my brown millie, I was raving all over the chat room because it was performing like an easy to sharpen and less damage prone ZDP for me. I kept comparing it to ZDP then.

I only found that ZDP outperformed XHP in my uses when, taken to very low angles(for me, :D ). I still like the toughness of XHP over the edge holding and the "finickiness" of ZDP(in sharpening). I like the freaky edge ZDP takes when taken to low angles but it's mostly a show off edge for me and less a practical EDC. I would say ZDP is a boss in food prep but I'll take my XHP millie over it when I don't know what cutting tasks I'll be facing that day. :D

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Postby rodloos » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:19 am

That makes sense that preference for one steel over the other could differ, based on what kind of material a person cuts most.

I was a bit surprised about Ankerson's recent comparison, where regular S30V was outperforming XHP cutting rope.

But my own uses are *very* unscientific and subjective, plus I think I am easily influenced by expectations -- if a new steel comes out and everyone is raving about how it keeps an edge, I think I tend to feel like I'm getting great results too, but without doing any real test, its all just a feeling.

Aside from the occasional loose thread, opening the mail, or maybe cutting some fruit, *most* of what I cut is wood. I really enjoy sitting there with some sticks, whittling and slicing shavings into a bucket. I'll go back and forth between several different models, comparing how well the edge grinds work, and trying for the thinnest shavings.

Especially with ZDP-189 and/or thin edge grinds, I do pay attention to not twisting the blade around knots in the wood -- if the branch is really knotted or uneven I'll tend to use 1095 or O1 blades. But I've been real happy with XHP, whether in my Manix2 or Millie. Like I said, maybe it's because I *expected* it to surpass S30V?
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Postby Blerv » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:27 am

Ankerson's cutting test could have very well gone the other way too. They were pretty darn close and IMHO it's less of a knock against CTS-XHP and more a positive spin for CPM-S30v. It was a high chromium vs low vanadium stand-off really and both knifes did awesome.

What ZDP-189 has is very high hardness, 3% carbon, and 20% chromium. That's definitely not the recipe (or execution) for toughness. That said, it's tougher than the specs would indicate for a stainless'ish knife.

I would like to try an XHP blade at some point but probably won't get a Techno. The tangible advantage for ZDP-189, and I've said this many times, is being able to buy it starting at $35. That and every knife it comes in has a very thin edge. For pure edge retention it's already ahead of the curve on that basis alone.
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Valuable Comments!

Postby LC Kid » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:58 am

Hey Folks!


Thanx Much for your valuable comments on this comparison.

My personal impression is about the same one that Mr. chuck_roxas45 has: CTS - XHP is an amazing all around steel for everyday use
:) It could be sharp at < 30° inclusive and still retain the edge for a long time, and it seems that it definitely performs way better than ZDP - 189 when it has a 30° - 40° inclusive edge.

Another aspect in this debate is about how easy is to maintain those edges. What I mean is wich one of them will be easier to get to a very fine edge?

I would say here wins the CTX - XHP over the ZDP - 189. But lets hear about this from the experts!
:D
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Postby senorsquare » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:09 am

rodloos wrote:I was a bit surprised about Ankerson's recent comparison, where regular S30V was outperforming XHP cutting rope.
Blerv wrote:Ankerson's cutting test could have very well gone the other way too. They were pretty darn close and IMHO it's less of a knock against CTS-XHP and more a positive spin for CPM-S30v. It was a high chromium vs low vanadium stand-off really and both knifes did awesome.
One thing that is interesting to note is that in Ankerson's rankings on BF where the tested the knives with polished edges, CTS-XHP is ranked a category above S30V but his recent comparison testing the blades with with coarse edge finishes S30V beat XHP. It seems the composition of the steel is only part of the equation. Lots of variables, lots of options...

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Postby kbuzbee » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:17 am

senorsquare wrote: Lots of variables, lots of options...
So true!

Part of why Sal's always saying 'not better, just different'. Applied to angles, grits, steels etc. What you do and how you do it determines what will work best for you (on that particular cut, even) Change one thing (the kind of rope you are cutting, for example) and you may find a different "best".

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Postby kennethsime » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:24 pm

I guess I'm a little confused as to people saying that ZDP is wasted if not sharpened to very fine angles. My thought has always been that the wider an angle, the more durable the edge, although obviously you lose cutting performance (not quite as sharp) the wider you go.

Is ZDP a waste because it holds an edge less-well at 30 inclusive than it would at 20 inclusive? Or is it just that because of ZDP's high wear resistance, it can handle finer edges (such as 20 inclusive) than XHP and other competing steels sharpened to the same angles?

For someone wanting to maintain ZDP-189 Spydercos, would a Sharpmaker not be adequate? Would 15 degrees per side (30 inclusive) with a 20dps (40 inclusive) microbevel not offer sufficient cutting performance?
Lost to the Ages: C90GRE Stretch 1 ZDP-189 British Racing Green | C28GRE2 Dragonfly 2 ZDP-189 British Racing Green
C12BK2W Matriarch 2 VG-10 Emerson Open | C81G2 Para Military 2 S30V

Currently Rotating: C81GPRGR2 Para Military 2 K390 Ranger Green | C223GPRGR Para 3 K390 Ranger Green
C90FPIV2 Stretch 2 Straight Spine, VG-10 Rit Dye'd Dark Apple Green | C223GP Para 3 S30V Green Canvas Micarta
C41BORE5 Native 5 Lightweight REX 45 Burnt Orange | C223BORE Para 3 Lightweight REX 45 Burnt Orange
C101GY2 Manix 2 Lightweight Maxamet Gray | C28GFG Dragonfly K390 Swap Foliage Green
MT27 Mule Team 27 Micro-Melt PD#1 Ranger Green | C36GPGR Military 204p Dark Green

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Postby senorsquare » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:30 pm

kennethsime wrote:I guess I'm a little confused as to people saying that ZDP is wasted if not sharpened to very fine angles. My thought has always been that the wider an angle, the more durable the edge, although obviously you lose cutting performance (not quite as sharp) the wider you go.

Is ZDP a waste because it holds an edge less-well at 30 inclusive than it would at 20 inclusive? Or is it just that because of ZDP's high wear resistance, it can handle finer edges (such as 20 inclusive) than XHP and other competing steels sharpened to the same angles?

For someone wanting to maintain ZDP-189 Spydercos, would a Sharpmaker not be adequate? Would 15 degrees per side (30 inclusive) with a 20dps (40 inclusive) microbevel not offer sufficient cutting performance?
I think the idea is that it is a shame to leave ZDP at a 30/40 degree edge and get sufficient performance when you can drop it to a much lower angle and get AMAZING performance. Sort of like putting a governor on a Ferrari.

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Postby Cliff Stamp » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:09 pm

kennethsime wrote:I guess I'm a little confused as to people saying that ZDP is wasted if not sharpened to very fine angles.
ZDP-189 is a very expensive steel compared to say VG-10, if you keep it at the same shape (edge angle/thickness) it will cut the same (assuming the same sharpness). However because it is a PM steel, because it is generally ran significantly harder, because the carbides are smaller and much better distributed, because the aus-grain is finer, etc. . You should be able to put a finer edge angle on it and appreciate the higher cutting ability and keeping in mind that you are likely going to be using it for finer work then you should be able to make it much finer. This will also make it much easier to sharpen.

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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:39 pm

kennethsime wrote:I guess I'm a little confused as to people saying that ZDP is wasted if not sharpened to very fine angles. My thought has always been that the wider an angle, the more durable the edge, although obviously you lose cutting performance (not quite as sharp) the wider you go.

Is ZDP a waste because it holds an edge less-well at 30 inclusive than it would at 20 inclusive? Or is it just that because of ZDP's high wear resistance, it can handle finer edges (such as 20 inclusive) than XHP and other competing steels sharpened to the same angles?

For someone wanting to maintain ZDP-189 Spydercos, would a Sharpmaker not be adequate? Would 15 degrees per side (30 inclusive) with a 20dps (40 inclusive) microbevel not offer sufficient cutting performance?
ZDP at 40° inlcusive cuts less well, holds an edge less well, and is harder to sharpen than the same knife at 22/30. The only upside is that it's not as fragile when you use it roughly.

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kennethsime
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Postby kennethsime » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:36 pm

chuck_roxas45 wrote:ZDP at 40° inlcusive cuts less well, holds an edge less well, and is harder to sharpen than the same knife at 22/30. The only upside is that it's not as fragile when you use it roughly.
So you would argue that a ZDP knife sharpened at 40 inclusive would actually dull more quickly than the same knife sharpened to 22/30 degrees?
Lost to the Ages: C90GRE Stretch 1 ZDP-189 British Racing Green | C28GRE2 Dragonfly 2 ZDP-189 British Racing Green
C12BK2W Matriarch 2 VG-10 Emerson Open | C81G2 Para Military 2 S30V

Currently Rotating: C81GPRGR2 Para Military 2 K390 Ranger Green | C223GPRGR Para 3 K390 Ranger Green
C90FPIV2 Stretch 2 Straight Spine, VG-10 Rit Dye'd Dark Apple Green | C223GP Para 3 S30V Green Canvas Micarta
C41BORE5 Native 5 Lightweight REX 45 Burnt Orange | C223BORE Para 3 Lightweight REX 45 Burnt Orange
C101GY2 Manix 2 Lightweight Maxamet Gray | C28GFG Dragonfly K390 Swap Foliage Green
MT27 Mule Team 27 Micro-Melt PD#1 Ranger Green | C36GPGR Military 204p Dark Green

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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:47 pm

kennethsime wrote:So you would argue that a ZDP knife sharpened at 40 inclusive would actually dull more quickly than the same knife sharpened to 22/30 degrees?

Yes, in fact that's true for most knife steels. From my informal "tests", even VG-10 almost doubled it's retention going from 36/40 to 26/30.


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