Frustration!: Arguing about lockback's strength

[Cliff Stamp]

The reliability was intended to connote equally reliable (neither lock is particularly prone to failure). As for ease of use, I didn't mean specifically the lock mechanism, but the overall knife package.

Yes, I can understand that. Without the need for the ability to handle much heavier loads then all you would be doing is paying for a more complicated system which doesn't have a significant benefit. The package yes, that is fairly subjective and they each all have their fans, some of whom boggle me to no end but they still exist. I do like Demco's work in general though, he seems to have a very practical approach.

[Rider675]

Good to hear your experience, lock back's are my favorite. I had a CS Rajah 2 fail once chopping, despite loctite the pivot loosened causing the lock to fail. Im not sure if I could have released it by accident, but the lock had almost no tension so it could have disengaged during an impact. Anyway, the blade was unusable due to the horizontal play, and the lockup felt very loose. After that I realized build/parts quality has a lot to do with overall strength.

[v8r]

dude thats great....can I press like on that!

[DelicateEndurance]

Wow, I hadn't expected such a lot of response. :) Much of what you guys said is too true. I've given up trying to convince said guy that good enough really is good enough, and over-engineered is just that - over-engineered. It's one thing to have plenty of buffer and redundancy, but then, if one had to build in too much of those, then it's likely that the wrong tool is being applied, and one should just get the right tool, e.g. a fixed blade or a pry bar. In fact, a jack knife with no lock at all would have served equally well in jungle survival if you apply it correctly. The real 'must have' in a jungle is actually a machete, like the cheapo but still very effective Malay Parang, not a folding knife with some fancy locking mechanism.

[chuck_roxas45]

Good to hear your experience, lock back's are my favorite. I had a CS Rajah 2 fail once chopping, despite loctite the pivot loosened causing the lock to fail. Im not sure if I could have released it by accident, but the lock had almost no tension so it could have disengaged during an impact. Anyway, the blade was unusable due to the horizontal play, and the lockup felt very loose. After that I realized build/parts quality has a lot to do with overall strength.

It's probably not a good idea to rely on a folder for chopping.

[chuck_roxas45]

Wow, I hadn't expected such a lot of response. :) Much of what you guys said is too true. I've given up trying to convince said guy that good enough really is good enough, and over-engineered is just that - over-engineered. It's one thing to have plenty of buffer and redundancy, but then, if one had to build in too much of those, then it's likely that the wrong tool is being applied, and one should just get the right tool, e.g. a fixed blade or a pry bar. In fact, a jack knife with no lock at all would have served equally well in jungle survival if you apply it correctly. The real 'must have' in a jungle is actually a machete, like the cheapo but still very effective Malay Parang, not a folding knife with some fancy locking mechanism.

Probably also depends on the job that's it's to be used for. :)

....
I think that most of the guys who want the stronger locks are the guys who look at their folders as an SD option. SD use can't be anticipated so carrying a fixed blade might not be an option. The strongest fixed blades won't be much use in such a situation if it's at home. You'll just want the strongest, most convenient knife to carry all of the time, which equals a strong folder.

.....
I don't think anybody claims that a folder can equal the strength of a fixed blade for one time SHTF use, but some folders are getting to the point that they are almost as practical as fixed blades for these situations. However likely or unlikely you might think they are to occur. It just comes down to philosophy of use.

I posted this earlier. Also why do you have to convince them that you are right? What about agreeing to disagree?

[DelicateEndurance]

It's probably not a good idea to rely on a folder for chopping.

Not to mention that it may leave your hand raw. I did that foolishly, and quickly realized the age-old concept of using the right tool for the right job.

[chuck_roxas45]

Not to mention that it may leave your hand raw. I did that foolishly, and quickly realized the age-old concept of using the right tool for the right job.

Yes, but you also don't always have the luxury of having the right tool. It's also good to be able to improvise. I'd have battoned with that rajah 2 rather than chop with it, if the material was rigid.

I carry a rajah 2 most of the time if I can't carry a pistol, it's probably not "the right tool" for SD but I'll be glad to have it if, you know, some kind of s**t comes up. :)

[Cliff Stamp]

...if one had to build in too much of those, then it's likely that the wrong tool is being applied, and one should just get the right tool, e.g. a fixed blade or a pry bar.

So there is no point to the entire line of MBC knives that Spyderco produces?

If it is automatically the wrong tool to use a folder when significant loads are possible on the blade, what is the purpose of blades of the thickness commonly see on folders? They are all directly inferior in regards to light cutting than a very thin and narrow blade with full tapers.

The Spyderco Tuff for example certainly isn't designed for ultra-light cutting, so if it is the wrong tool to use it in a way which utilizes the strength of the blade then what exactly is it the right tool for?

[Blerv]

Makers should call "hard use" knives "harder than 99.9% will use". Ill never defeat a Ladybug let alone a Tuff. If I enjoyed thrashing on things perhaps but many of those tasks which caused failures are not as the makers intended.

MBC is a cool way to define lock strength but unnecessary given the purpose. Unless you are defending yourself from robots I suspect a Delica's blade will sink to its pivot without a ton of effort. People often aren't trained for extensive trapping. Those who are wouldn't be doing that in a most encounters with live blades.

Basically people can defeat locks. Tough locks are not unbreakable but shouldn't leave you stranded in normal to severe situations. A lock IS designed to keep the blade open. The lock ISN'T designed to let you hammer nails into oak siding with the blade spine.

[Cliff Stamp]

MBC is a cool way to define lock strength but unnecessary given the purpose. Unless you are defending yourself from robots I suspect a Delica's blade will sink to its pivot without a ton of effort.

It isn't about the force required to stab into a person, in general that is fairly low. It is about the following :

-people move, they don't stand still and let you stab them or stay still while being stabbed

-people don't execute perfect inline stabs, any stab which isn't 100% horizontal will thus have a vertical load component

-you could hit something other than the soft parts

-the knife itself could be hit

All of these will put a very high load on the spine and attempt to force the lock closed.

This is also just one of the applications, as another there are lots of folders which are designed to take spine loads directly to allow them to split wood similar to a hacking knife. Again, this is part of the design of the knife and why the locks are designed for a high strength/security.

Now again, it is perfectly fine to say none of these aspects are relevant to you, just like you could say that you don't need/use a fillet knife, but it would be pretty odd to say there is no need for fillet knives in general because you don't need/desire one.

[Blerv]

I understand that there is a difference between designing a tool for a job and simply adapting to the situation. That's why knives like the Douk Douk when hammered closed end up performing evil tasks frequently in certain places of the world.

My own training is minimal. I do have friends and family who use Delica and Endura trainers with years of FMA. They go hard and draw blood using advanced trapping and athleticism far beyond me. None have ever experienced a failed lock which doesn't mean it can't happen but leads me to believe its statistically unlikely to happen in a 15 second situation of mortal danger.

It seems to me live blades would lead to more feinting and fencing. It would take two believers in Valhalla to clash at close range or use muscle over reflexes. The blade doesn't need much strength. Strength leads to tension which leads to slow which leads to dead :) .

Ps: I'm not saying the knives aren't needed. I just don't think of blade combatives when shopping for a sturdy lock. If designing a knife from the ground up for that task using a sturdy lock totally makes sense (even if excessive security).

[chuck_roxas45]

Would different styles lead to different stresses in a knife? Would a RGEI or pakal style fighter have the same confidence in an endura as an MBC practitioner who mostly slashes?

[Blerv]

Again only speculatively I would think less as the strikes are mainly hooking towards the edge.

RGEO would probably be the highest need for a sturdy lock depending on how much you are passing/trapping. Same reason a folding kerambit would greatly benefit as its more of a close game and the spine is used more agressively.

It's one of those things obviously more is better. A comp lock or similar mentioned above is never a bad thing unless you have to sacrifice to get it (eg 7+ ounce knife).

Looping back to the topic of the post (sorry OP), if you can have the engineering a no expense besides cost its difficult to argue against it. Sadly you can't outfit a knife like building a moving van. You have to take a certain number of design decisions along with the Tri-Ad which may or may not be desirable. Then it's a matter of functional gain.

If ultimate reliability was paramount guns like the 1911 would have never shaken the revolver's customer base. The low number of times a quality gun will jam with proper ammo though makes the choice clear for many.

[Cliff Stamp]

It seems to me live blades would lead to more feinting and fencing.

It isn't this situation :

-you draw a blade
-he draws a blade
-mortal combat theme song plays in the background
-you clash

It is :

-you conclude a lethal response is acceptable to the current situation
-you respond with lethal intent

It could simply be a matter of a failed draw actually not even making it to the stab/slice before you are smashed into/hit and again the blade is loaded.

It is not immediately obvious that having a blade which can not withstand lateral loads leads to a risk of the user. If it is then so obvious the question then is :

-what is the strength/security so needed to minimize this risk

Consider this scenario, how would you feel about a gun which if you jerked the trigged too hard the round in the chamber would actually explode inside the gun rather than be fired from it. Would anyone think it reasonable to respond :

"That is a perfectly sensible design because you should never jerk on a trigger anyway with excessive force."

Most tools in general have safe guards to prevent danger/damage to the user in non-ideal conditions because in use ideal conditions are rare.

This is again ignoring the obvious point :

-if these knives are not mean to take heavy and dynamic loads then what is the point of the cross section of the blade and edge

They are vastly inferior designs if they are not exactly the "right tool" for such uses.

[Blerv]

I'm the first one to admit the practical use of "SD blades" is almost nil. There is so much going on from draw to application to result to legal right of use that lock strength is a laughable topic.

I'm not saying that strong locks aren't helpful with knives intended to be used for defense. I'm saying that less emphasis should be placed on "MBC capable" as a function of lock strength and more a result of model design (which often incorporates a strong lock).

Does that sound reasonable? If not, I agree with whatever you say next. :)

[Cliff Stamp]

As a user you are free to make any stance in regards to risk and it is arguable indeed that the risk of lock collapse isn't likely to be the major one if you are forced to use a knife in a lethal manner. In fact it is probably overly obvious it isn't the major concern at that point.

I would still ask the question though - why would you want a knife which was so weak/insecure that it could happen, what is the attraction to such a design? There are knives that have this risk far less so why not use, or in fact demand, such performance?

I use slip-joints of course and I am not saying that all knives need to have such locks, but when blades get thick, handles get heavy, custom milled stand-offs start to be used - it starts to scream rather obviously that unless the lock is also engineered to the same scale this design is inconsistent in a rather dramatic fashion.

Beyond the user, from a manufacturing design, Spyderco has liability concerns. While it may seem unreasonable or even downright silly, we live in times where lawsuits have been filed and won over what would appear to be laughable claims. Having a lock which is marketed for activities which can induce high loads but not being able to actually take them is a problem you might not want to have.

[tr4022]

Unless the other dude's been through jungle survival training in Brunei, I wouldn't sweat it.

Tod

[chuck_roxas45]

Again only speculatively I would think less as the strikes are mainly hooking towards the edge.

RGEO would probably be the highest need for a sturdy lock depending on how much you are passing/trapping. Same reason a folding kerambit would greatly benefit as its more of a close game and the spine is used more agressively.

It's one of those things obviously more is better. A comp lock or similar mentioned above is never a bad thing unless you have to sacrifice to get it (eg 7+ ounce knife).

Looping back to the topic of the post (sorry OP), if you can have the engineering a no expense besides cost its difficult to argue against it. Sadly you can't outfit a knife like building a moving van. You have to take a certain number of design decisions along with the Tri-Ad which may or may not be desirable. Then it's a matter of functional gain.

If ultimate reliability was paramount guns like the 1911 would have never shaken the revolver's customer base. The low number of times a quality gun will jam with proper ammo though makes the choice clear for many.

That would be in an ideal world, but an RGEI attack is primarily a stabbing attack with a hook motion at the end. Just practicing on a cutting dummy, you'll have multiple impacts on the spine of the blade. Coming up short with an attack will impact the spine. Think of punching with the spine. Also, with an RGEI attack which is also a point driven method, you don't just assume you'll hit a soft spot. You aim for precision but when it gets down and dirty, you're just supposed to go for the "sewing machine" attack.

A primary target is the corner between the neck and the shoulder and that area is full of bones. I'd hate to have a knife close on my fingers in a full power stab. :eek:

[Blerv]

Good points Chuck :) . I was assuming more flow than the RGEI "jab".

In a perfect world it would be a proper fixed blade or a very heavy duty lock. In a less than perfect one whatever works, works. A Delica or Endura is more than adequate while perhaps far from ideal.

I've yet to be in a true "fight" let alone one involving blades. I'd probably resort to hitting and less jail time.