Anyone else not concerned much about blade steel?

[BAL]

Military for EDC and Yojimbo 2 for Self Defense.
And that GB is a tank. So is the Massad Ayoob
and the Tuff. You have to love Sal, Eric, Michael
Janich, Gayle Bradley, Massad Ayoob and Ed
Schempp. And especially Kristi. Rock on.

[kbuzbee]

when you see the SS SINKS-A-LOT blowing black smoke and going in circles.

I just spit out my coffee. You're killing me here, Blake! Gotta go get some paper towels....

Cliff Stamp who posted here earlier before it hit the fan. Cliff is an expert on all things knives

And equally as valuable, all things holly. I value the cross pollination (botanical joke) of ideas brought forth.

Ken

[Blerv]

Blerv,

There are existing functions which do that they are just additional modules or scripts to be installed, they can remove the posts entirely, remove any threads started and even remove any attempt to quote an ignored person. When you then ignore someone there is no sign that they ever posted. The modules are just called ignore more or similar.

Cliff, that's all I want for Christmas :) .

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff, that's all I want for Christmas :) .

Be very very nice to Kristi.

I value the cross pollination (botanical joke) of ideas brought forth.

As a piece of history, way back when, gardening actually came up in the great liner lock wars of 01. It was about this time that Joe Talmadge and Steve Harvey were doing a lot of work with the security and strength respectively of linear locks with complaints from both individuals about both. Steve ended up with a much more extreme position saying liner locks could not be used on tactical knives, Joe's position was that they were very geometry sensitive and careful evaluation had to be done to make this distinction.

This set off a number of people including Les Robertson who was (still is) a dealer of very high end liner locks as tactical/fighting knives. After the first flurry was exchanged when Les claimed all of the testing was invalid as he rejected spine impacts as valid, he ended up demanding for even a single example of how a liner lock had failed in use. Of course it was very unlikely to have anyone describe how they had stabbed someone with a folding knife or otherwise was involved in a serious altercation, Les thought he had checkmate.

Joe responded could it be simple utility use, Les agreed, Joe then provided an example where use of a liner lock by Lindsey Lohan for some simple weeding where the knife got stuck in a cut (due to trying to cut too close to a limb stub) and when the knife was drawn out the lock released and the blade collapsed on the hand. He argued that if that knife was actually used in a martial encounter it could easily be subjected to similar but greater in magnitude forces and it was thus even more likely to release.

And so ended the last of the great liner lock wars, where the final volley was made by a humble gardener who was just on a work relief program showing a commitment to community service.

(some exaggeration may have been made in the interest of story telling, Lindsey Lohan may have not actually been involved)

On a curious note, consider this, we have :

-ingot (wrought) D2
-spray formed D2
-P/M D2

All of these are a step basically towards improving the steel by essentially (at a very basic level) minimizing the ingot size. We also have :

-Friction Forged D2

Which is normally applied to regular D2. What would happen if you friction forged a P/M version of D2 instead? Would you get a further compounding effect or would no gain be made as the FF already achieves a maximum in regards to aus-grain minimization and primary carbide dispersion and soak.

[v8r]

I think that it is a song by Dio.

Bahahahahahaha!

[gaj999]

From someone who LOVES to watch a ship sinking it's difficult not to toggle-off the filter when you see the SS SINKS-A-LOT blowing black smoke and going in circles.

LOL. Exactly. It's like not watching a train wreck.

Gordon

[araneae]

I have yet to be disappointed by a spyderco steel. Gin 1 to 8Cr13 to ZDP, all of them get the job done. I do prefer H1 for outdoor work use because I don't have any worries about corrosion. Design is my primary factor in knife choice. If I find one design I like I am likely to try other steels if they are offered on that model. Caly 3 in super blue, yes please.

[Cliff Stamp]

In regards to sharpening and blade wear, this is a first generation RSK which has been in use since they were put out, after some light use many years ago :



after years of use by my brother :



-bendt clip
-side to side play (significant)
-deep recurve
-edge is thickened, above 0.030"
-edge is now very wide, ease of sharpening is much reduced



-recurve removed
-edge thinned to 0.020"
-convex bevel from 0.020" to just under 0.010"
-apex bevel at 15 dps

As this is my brothers knife I left it a bit heavy on the edge as he does non-knife things with it, if it was mine :

-edge thinned to 0.015"
-convex bevel from 0.015" to under 0.005"
-apex bevel at 10 dps

If you look at the sharpening notch/choil in the first and last picture you can clearly see the loss of metal from sharpening. This knife gets used to cut :

-gyproc
-shingles
-insulation

etc. and gets used to the point where it is butter knife dull, edge worn completely off and is almost always power sharpened. This is a rather extreme case though because even though the knife is used in really harsh conditions there is a trivial amount of sharpening wear because it is used really dull and since dulling is nonlinear that means it goes a long time between sharpening, which is further enhanced by the high wear resistance of S30V.

[STR]

I figure any steel produced by Spyderco is going to do anything I ask of a knife pretty well. The only knife I picked because of the steel used was my Ladybug Salt SE.

I think if someone wants a high precision cutting instrument that Spyderco is a premium choice because they use premium blade steels and for the most part they use the steels correctly as opposed to others using the steels but not maximizing what it can bring to the table. Some do better than others there but the point is most knife nuts can't stand a dull knife. The majority are probably guilty of over sharpening but that is just my opinion. Knife nuts in general are somewhat of a puzzle. I put the question to you that if you are a knife knut and pretty much sharpen your knife back up by a quick touch up using the Sharpmaker or whatever other brilliant sharpening methods out there today before even really dulling it down much at all but maybe just dinging it up some in a place or three, then heck man you could get by with AUS6a just fine right? No? Okay so why not? If ZDP189 keeps an edge great but its never allowed to get dull or an AUS8 or AUS6 or 420HC blade is used but never allowed to really get dull why is there this need to be snobbish about the blade steel? Anyway, just food for thought. I think if you are going to have a user it first off has to be used to qualify. I get a kick out of user or EDC carry pics with no evident wear including those of my own. I mean we all have them. I carry this but oh heaven forbid I actually ding it up and use it. My Hinderer was that way. Great knife. Very pretty. Apparently though I was unable to use it so I found myself asking why am I carrying this again? Its just macho pocket jewelry and the funny thing is when I caught myself being guilty of this I laughed but then it is funny. I think we all do this. Some just don't admit it so readily I don't think. Chew on that for a while....Ha

STR

[kbuzbee]

heck man you could get by with AUS6a just fine right?

You make a point, Steve, in an ideal world. But I find I just don't take the time to refresh an edge every time I use it. Maybe I'm just lazy

Ken

[gaj999]

I put the question to you that if you are a knife knut and pretty much sharpen your knife back up by a quick touch up using the Sharpmaker or whatever other brilliant sharpening methods out there today before even really dulling it down much at all but maybe just dinging it up some in a place or three, then heck man you could get by with AUS6a just fine right? No? Okay so why not?

I'm lazy. I resharpen when my knife stops shaving hair. I rotate knives when the one I'm carrying gets dull and put the dull one in a pile, sharpening a bunch at once. I have one particular knife in AUS-8(AG Russell Woods Walker) that I can carry for about a day ... on a good day. That's just not acceptable. Spyderco's VG-10 is at about my minimum standard for edge-holding on an EDC. I can carry them long enough to justify the time spent sharpening. Did I mention that I'm lazy?

I'm sure that AUS-8 run at a decent hardness is a great steel and I probably could get by with it. The problem is finding it at a decent hardness. And I'm too lazy to bust my butt hunting for "good AUS-8" when there are so many steels out there that can perform as well or better even when not optimally hardened. I've seen that same issue with VG-10. I've got a laminated VG-10 blade from a Seki maker that holds an edge twice as long as my Spyderco VG-10 blades. I suspect that they ran it harder because of the lamination. I love that knife. I'd be thrilled if my Spyderco VG-10 edges lasted that long(hint, hint) ... but I don't pay for warranttee returns, so I don't expect it to happen.

Gordon

[anagarika]

Steve, good points. Even without heavy use I still touch up my blades, so it's always ready to shave with

That perhaps because I only have 8Cr and AUS8. Perhaps ZDP189 will last longer?

Gordon, similarly, I carry multiple for that reason, use the other when one gets dulled.

[Donut]

Its just macho pocket jewelry and the funny thing is when I caught myself being guilty of this I laughed but then it is funny. I think we all do this. Some just don't admit it so readily I don't think.

How dare you... be correct. :p

[Cliff Stamp]

I put the question to you that if you are a knife knut and pretty much sharpen your knife back up by a quick touch up using the Sharpmaker or whatever other brilliant sharpening methods out there today before even really dulling it down much at all but maybe just dinging it up some in a place or three, then heck man you could get by with AUS6a just fine right? No? Okay so why not?

The general argument would be that it doesn't last long enough to do one particular thing and so you would have to stop during a task to resharpen.

At some point however with "better" steels you will reach a steel which allows you to complete a task and resharpen when it is over, some steels move to more than one instance of a task. In the extreme, Tom Mayo would report he sold his knives (S60V) to hunting guides which could use them an entire season and then have him reharpen them, that obviously meant a lot to them.

Even most knife users for example would have some tolerance and for example would not want to stop to sharpen a knife while using it in the kitchen, others might not want to sharpen every week (there are multiple knives), others a month, etc. .

In general you can combat this with edge angle/thickness/grit modifications on simpler steels if you are willing to wear out a knife faster. If you carry a small hone with you as well you could use a knife made out of mild unhardened steel.

I get a kick out of user or EDC carry pics with no evident wear including those of my own. I mean we all have them. I carry this but oh heaven forbid I actually ding it up and use it. My Hinderer was that way. Great knife. Very pretty. Apparently though I was unable to use it so I found myself asking why am I carrying this again? Its just macho pocket jewelry ...

I have an XM-18, can't see how anyone would see it as jewellery as the aesthetics are not close to presentation grade, checkered G10, blasted/washed blades, etc. . I have a knife from Bruce Rugg on the other hand, mirror polished blade, Amboya burl handle, etc. . That is presentation grade, but still a user.

My perspective is the same as Chas Clements whose perspective was simple - make it work first, then make it pretty. I usually don't say pretty, but there is no need to have an ugly knife unless you can't afford it. There is an obvious question as to why pay for aesthetics you are going to damage - but the same could be asked as to why buy a new car or clothes as well.



One of my few regrets was not sending some knives to Chas for cases while he could still make them.

I'm sure that AUS-8 run at a decent hardness is a great steel and I probably could get by with it. The problem is finding it at a decent hardness.

It isn't the hardness, everyone is going to run it practically at the same hardness within 1-2 points, the difference is in the micro-structure at a given hardness. For what you want try Benchmade, ideally an older one from 96-2000. No experience with the later ones, I assume they are the same but have not used them.

[Blerv]

I had an AUS-6 Spydie once, a serrated Meerkat. I guess two if you count the Ladybug Rescue but I didn't cut much with that. Granted the Meerkat was serrated but it stayed sharp a very long time and was easy to touch up. I've also had AUS-8 knives (non Spyderco) which came extremely sharp but the edge wouldn't hold up to anything besides cutting post-it notes.

Quality makers use quality materials with proper techniques. If you trust the maker and haven't been disappointed they will rarely steer you wrong.

[Ankerson]

I think if someone wants a high precision cutting instrument that Spyderco is a premium choice because they use premium blade steels and for the most part they use the steels correctly as opposed to others using the steels but not maximizing what it can bring to the table. Some do better than others there but the point is most knife nuts can't stand a dull knife. The majority are probably guilty of over sharpening but that is just my opinion. Knife nuts in general are somewhat of a puzzle. I put the question to you that if you are a knife knut and pretty much sharpen your knife back up by a quick touch up using the Sharpmaker or whatever other brilliant sharpening methods out there today before even really dulling it down much at all but maybe just dinging it up some in a place or three, then heck man you could get by with AUS6a just fine right? No? Okay so why not? If ZDP189 keeps an edge great but its never allowed to get dull or an AUS8 or AUS6 or 420HC blade is used but never allowed to really get dull why is there this need to be snobbish about the blade steel? Anyway, just food for thought. I think if you are going to have a user it first off has to be used to qualify. I get a kick out of user or EDC carry pics with no evident wear including those of my own. I mean we all have them. I carry this but oh heaven forbid I actually ding it up and use it. My Hinderer was that way. Great knife. Very pretty. Apparently though I was unable to use it so I found myself asking why am I carrying this again? Its just macho pocket jewelry and the funny thing is when I caught myself being guilty of this I laughed but then it is funny. I think we all do this. Some just don't admit it so readily I don't think. Chew on that for a while....Ha

STR

Steve,

Great post as always. :)

A lot of good points in there and you would be right in most of them IMO. :cool:

For me I use and carry S30V more than anything else, yes I have and use knives in other steels, but that's the one I usually end up carrying most of the time at work.

It's one of those steels that just works and keeps working FOR ME and Spyderco really got the HT right.

When do i tough it up?

Well once it starts to lose some bite, usually once a week or so on a strop loaded with Silicone Carbide. (Smooth side)

My long term Military thread here:

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthre ... n-CPM-S30V

Jim

[JNewell]

Cliff's right, or at least part right, but I wonder if his argument proves too much. I know that most people I know regard knives, even good ones (good kitchen knives), as disposable purchases. They use them until they need sharpening and then replace them. ATS-34 can still be a very good blade, but it needs some maintenance. A lot of people today don't have time, or the mind-set, for maintenance.

[Cliff Stamp]

They use them until they need sharpening and then replace them.

It that case it is likely the case that a very inexpensive blade would be a more sensible choice as it isn't difficult to find choices <$5 . These knives are curiously enough so low in cost that it actually costs more money to sharpen them, even if you do it yourself than it would to just replace them. I have a set of six knives to sharpen for a friend this evening which all show significant edge damage, they are sharpened at most twice a year. The entire set is < $10. It will take me about half an hour to sharpen the six of them including the time to prepare the stones, and then flatten them and put them away after use. Even if I valued my time at minimum wage I would be better off just buying replacements - but of course it is a hobby and I enjoy it.

[Stuart Ackerman]

I am happy with VG10, as I grind it, understand its heat treatment ( although I pay a pro to HT my blades ), and I can sharpen it very quickly...

I have knives with blades I have made with S30V, D2, 12C27, 440C, etc etc, and I just prefer VG10 overall...

Steel snob I am not...I am always open to new ideas, however...

[chuck_roxas45]

I am happy with VG10, as I grind it, understand its heat treatment ( although I pay a pro to HT my blades ), and I can sharpen it very quickly...

I have knives with blades I have made with S30V, D2, 12C27, 440C, etc etc, and I just prefer VG10 overall...

Steel snob I am not...I am always open to new ideas, however...

I'd say YOU ARE a steel snob. You have found what you like and you're sticking with it over other steels. VG-10 is a very nice steel, one of my favorites. I, OTOH, am not a steel snob. I am a steel whore. I like them all. :D