Anyone else not concerned much about blade steel?

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Onionman
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Postby Onionman » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:24 am

Because I don't mess with the bevels and edge angles, I find that VG-10 is the best since it sharpens up easily on the sharpmaker and holds its edge for a decent amount of time. As much as I like my ZDP knives when sharp, I find it time consuming to get them sharp again on the sharpmaker. I think if I were to experiment with edge angles and bevels, I would be more into different steels.

I am also not into the tools steels and others that rust easily as I don't think the steel's properties are worth the time and effort in maintenance.
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Postby The Deacon » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:43 am

Donut wrote:You remember those threads on "have you ever used up a knife?" where people will show a S90V blade worn down an entire quarter of an inch? Those are the people using DMT as their main sharpening tool. I don't have much information to back it up, but it seems like the people who use DMT are shortening the life of their knives. In my opinion, that would make it the wrong tool for the job.
I'm curious as to why you single out DMT stones. I use them, I can show you a VG-10 Stretch that has been sharpened at least 100 times on them over the last eight years, and shows little, if any wear. I'd faster think wear like you noted is caused by either abusing the knife repeatedly so that large chips had to be sharpened out, or using "power tools". I'm sure the person abusing his knife can justify repeatedly using a $300 tool to do work better suited to a scraper, hole saw, or some other inexpensive tool but, to me, that's just as much of an "operator malfunction" as inept sharpening on a belt grinder.
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Postby nozh2002 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:15 am

Donut wrote:Maybe you're right.

I have almost every grit of DMT stone, but I'm not completely convinced it is the right tool. You remember those threads on "have you ever used up a knife?" where people will show a S90V blade worn down an entire quarter of an inch? Those are the people using DMT as their main sharpening tool. I don't have much information to back it up, but it seems like the people who use DMT are shortening the life of their knives. In my opinion, that would make it the wrong tool for the job.
I agree that if DMT wear blade entire quarter of an inch - that would be wrong tool for the job.

But this is absolutely not a case, fortunately.

I use DMT to sharpen all my knives for 7 years now from 2006 - and I have quite a bit of them.
It does wear blade to the extent I need it - somehow I manage to stop when I see that edge is OK.

It will be really interesting to see those cases - I am in knife community from 2002 and never heart
anything like this. May be you mistake it with electric grinding wheel? Or is it your personal experience?
Again - looks to me very unlikely, like some kind of urban legend or something.

Now if you - "don't have much information to back it up" - why do you make this quite strong statement -
"it seems like the people who use DMT are shortening the life of their knives".

To me it is quite bold and unfair. This may make some people to believe that this is in did a case while
really you just pull it out of nothing.

DMT has much better performance then ceramic and you need only few minutes to do what take hours
on ceramic, but it does not mean you have to spend same hours with it to wear blade down - just do not
base you sharpening routine on time. Trick here is burr - if bur formed all length of edge - then no need
to continue.

This is true for every sharpening tool - DMT or ceraic etc...
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Donut
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Postby Donut » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:45 am

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Maybe the people using those S90V knives are actually cutting so much that they dull it and need to sharpen it every day and that level of use would generate that wear regardless of sharpening medium.
nozh2002 wrote: Now if you - "don't have much information to back it up" - why do you make this quite strong statement -
"it seems like the people who use DMT are shortening the life of their knives".
I am making a strong statement because it is all I know and I want a second opinion.
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Postby Evil D » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:58 am

Donut wrote:Thanks for the feedback, guys. Maybe the people using those S90V knives are actually cutting so much that they dull it and need to sharpen it every day and that level of use would generate that wear regardless of sharpening medium.
It would generate wear regardless of the steel/knife/stone being used. I've done it myself plenty times. It just depends on use and what level of sharpness the user wants to maintain the edge at. I realized that super high end steels like S90V are a bit overkill for me because I tend to touch up my knives on a daily basis, so that extreme edge retention is wasted and what I get in return is a steel that takes more work to sharpen. While I do need a good amount of edge retention, I don't need one that can go months without needing sharpened because I also enjoy having a hair whittling edge and not just a working edge. I realized that with my 20CP Para 2, I was unhappy with the steel because it didn't hold a hair whittling edge any longer than any other steel I have, but then I realized that the working edge retention is the big deal with steels like this, so if I sharpen everyday then a steel like this is wasted on me. There are enough steel options out there and different methods of sharpening that you can tailor a knife to a particular use.

My M4 Manix 2 is already showing signs of wear from sharpening, but it's my own fault. Somehow while sharpening it, the bevel developed this weird kink in the curve of the belly and it frustrated me to no end, and I had to basically sharpen it out which cost me a lot of steel. The belly is greatly reduced, almost to the point that it's a wharnie with a slight up sweep at the tip. It had nothing to do with the tools I used to sharpen, it was user error. Strangely enough, it really didn't go up into the blade as high as it looks, and it didn't loose any length, it just lost belly.

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Knives don't last forever if you really USE them, dull them to the point that they actually need the bevel profiled down thin again, chip them so they need extra work honing out chips, etc. People who casually EDC their knives and cut open their mail and trip a loose thread and cut their sandwich on lunch will see a knife worn down this much as some kind of mistake or problem with the stones, but it could just be a sign that the knife is living a healthy life.
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Postby nozh2002 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:05 am

Donut wrote:Thanks for the feedback, guys. Maybe the people using those S90V knives are actually cutting so much that they dull it and need to sharpen it every day and that level of use would generate that wear regardless of sharpening medium.


I am making a strong statement because it is all I know and I want a second opinion.
You are keep talking about some CPM S90V knives which were weared down by DMT use.
Can you provide some "information to back it up". You sound like this is well known cases
with thousands of knives dead too early because of DMT...

Let me make strong statement too -
"Donut pissed off for some reason with my remark on sharpening and demonstration
of knife whittling hair and so start Troll Wars, keep talking about imaginary cases of
blade weared off by DMT and stating that it shortening life of knives."

...I am asking second opinion (however information to back it up is all here).
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Postby Blerv » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:47 am

Unless you are reprofiling or fixing a damaged edge the wear from stones should be kept to a minimum. Assuming you have an edge angle that doesn't resemble a flat-head screwdriver.

I don't understand the DMT discussion. Abrasive resistant materials need abrasives to abrade them. The more aggressive the abrasive and the intensity of the use (ie intensity x frequency x duration) the more steel you will remove assuming it can cut the carbides in the subject.

Does the stone remove material? It will sharpen it.
Does it perform but too slowly? Spend more time or go to a more aggressive product
Does it perform but too quickly? Go slower or use a less aggressive product
Are you happy with the performance? If so, keep using it...if not, try something else.

That logic doesn't take decades of internet street-cred or posturing. Does it? :)
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Postby Ankerson » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:52 am

Blerv wrote:Unless you are reprofiling or fixing a damaged edge the wear from stones should be kept to a minimum. Assuming you have an edge angle that doesn't resemble a flat-head screwdriver.

I don't understand the DMT discussion. Abrasive resistant materials need abrasives to abrade them. The more aggressive the abrasive and the intensity of the use (ie intensity x frequency x duration) the more steel you will remove assuming it can cut the carbides in the subject.

Does the stone remove material? It will sharpen it.
Does it perform but too slowly? Spend more time or go to a more aggressive product
Does it perform but too quickly? Go slower or use a less aggressive product
Are you happy with the performance? If so, keep using it...if not, try something else.

That logic doesn't take decades of internet street-cred or posturing. Does it? :)
Yeah really. :D

If a knife is used a lot then touch it up before it gets dull. :)

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Postby nozh2002 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:10 pm

Blerv wrote:Unless you are reprofiling or fixing a damaged edge the wear from stones should be kept to a minimum. Assuming you have an edge angle that doesn't resemble a flat-head screwdriver.

I don't understand the DMT discussion. Abrasive resistant materials need abrasives to abrade them. The more aggressive the abrasive and the intensity of the use (ie intensity x frequency x duration) the more steel you will remove assuming it can cut the carbides in the subject.

Does the stone remove material? It will sharpen it.
Does it perform but too slowly? Spend more time or go to a more aggressive product
Does it perform but too quickly? Go slower or use a less aggressive product
Are you happy with the performance? If so, keep using it...if not, try something else.

That logic doesn't take decades of internet street-cred or posturing. Does it? :)
It is pretty simple. We have clear case of promotion of idea that "DMT shorten life time of knife".
There is some mythical cases of quater inch CPM S90V blade being eaten by those "terrible DMT".
Which I never heart about being around for a while.

This is all big nonsense pulled from nowhere.

This is just ridicules. I only puzzled why?

... And I never really see knife being sharpened out of existence...
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Postby Steffen » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:26 pm

dont care much about steels, but i did notice a difference when going from 8cr13mov to 154cm.
i also want to try out a H1, but only because of the bright yellow handle.

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Postby Fred Sanford » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:04 pm

I didn't used to be. I used to accept VG-10 and 154CM as "just fine". After I tried CPM-M4, CPM-D2, and ZDP-189 and saw what they could do......it was all over. There is a ZDP-189 Delica in my pocket right now. I'm just blown away at what I can cut and how long those steels will go without needing to be sharpened when compared to VG-10 and 154CM. Sounds dumb, but I cut through a CAT-5 network cable with a VG-10 Delica. The edge looked rolled or blunted afterwards. I did the same with a ZDP-189 Delica and it still looked like new. Stuff is unreal.
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Postby Cliff Stamp » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:30 pm

Blerv wrote:Unless you are reprofiling or fixing a damaged edge the wear from stones should be kept to a minimum.
It was not that long ago that it was very common for knives to be sharpened on natural abrasives and oilstones, these in general cut very slowly compared to waterstones which cut very slowly compared to quality diamond abrasives.

If you watch many sharpening video's they often stress a couple of common points :

-use XXX passes per side
-sharpen until you achieve a burr

The first one will lead to really rapid wear if you switch from any stone to a faster cutting stone obviously. The second one also does the same if you think about the extent of over sharpening with a faster cutting stone and further if you form a burr every time you switch grits and attempt to polish a bevel.

In regards to rapid wear, if you sharpened a knife every day and just removed 10 microns of steel from the edge after a year you would have approximately 1/4" of steel removed. Regardless of the steel, if you use a knife significantly you would need to do that unless you wanted to use the knife when it was dull.

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Postby messer454 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:31 pm

Steel really doesn't matter to me if I like the design of the knife. I like to try different steels though in old standby designs. For instance, I paid the extra for ZDP in the Endura and I can tell the difference. I would try any new steel in the Endura or Delica.
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Postby zidfeldts » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:32 pm

I tend to carry knives a lot more than use them. I am sure if a had a thinned ZDP or S90v blade I would go a year between sharpenings. A VG10 blade on a Stretch gets sharpened about every 4 months, just power stropped and it is good to go again.

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Postby nozh2002 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:02 pm

Cliff Stamp wrote:In regards to rapid wear, if you sharpened a knife every day and just removed 10 microns of steel from the edge after a year you would have approximately 1/4" of steel removed. Regardless of the steel, if you use a knife significantly you would need to do that unless you wanted to use the knife when it was dull.
3650µ = 09⁄64in

I am not a scientist but it looks more like aproximately 1/8" (twice less then 1/4")

(According to http://www.metric-conversions.org/lengt ... inches.htm)

0.25in = 6350.0µ approximately 1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days
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Postby Rider675 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:12 pm

Im a big fan of the latest and greatest steels. Sense I sharpen with power equipment, I can get great edge retention without longer sharpening. The blade also lasts longer.

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Postby Cliff Stamp » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:10 pm

nozh2002 wrote: I am not a scientist but it looks more like aproximately 1/8" (twice less then 1/4")
If you remove 10 microns from the edge, approximately twice would be removed from the bevel width for normal sharpening angles (15-25 dps), hence approximately 1/4" in a year as noted.

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Postby nozh2002 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:55 pm

Cliff Stamp wrote:If you remove 10 microns from the edge, approximately twice would be removed from the bevel width for normal sharpening angles (15-25 dps), hence approximately 1/4" in a year as noted.
*Edited*
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Postby jabba359 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:03 am

And...




...another thread completely derailed.
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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:14 am

jabba359 wrote:And...




...another thread completely derailed.

I dunno why a derailed thread seems such a horror to some folks. Anybody can post on topic whenever they want. ;)

I'm sure that if the on topic post is interesting enough, that a lot of people will reply to it. Unless of course, the drama is more interesting to watch. :D


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