Steel Junkies: A new laminate S 90V clad with cpm 154 cm FYI

[sal]

Hi Vassili,

Good to see you here. Crucible made another batch of Cruwear and we will be using it in a model soon. Mostly for Joe.

We only have two US foundries to work with. What steels, (other than 440V, which met with much resistance) would you like to see?

sal

[bdblue]

Some people may notice that this graph is for shear stress due to torsion whereas our discussion of knife behavior involved tension and compression stresses, however this graph is still applicable for discussion purposes because shear stress is behaviour is related to tensile stress behavior. My work is with steels of 270,000 psi strength and below. I'm not sure how heat treated knife steels compare but I had always assumed that they had a higher strength level and very little plastic deformation before fracture.

The part that most people get wrong is that the actual resistance of the steel to bending (the slope of the curve) is actually the same in the elastic region regardless of how the steel is hardened. All that happens is that the yield point is changed.

The slope of the curve is the stiffness of the material, we call it "youngs modulus" or "modulus of elasticity", and it can't be changed by heat treating or minor tinkering with the alloy. I haven't really studied this before but I have wondered how youngs modulus might be changed by the addition of large amounts of chromium to make stainless steels.

[razorsharp]

lolwut

trust me, theres more nonsense to come

[nozh2002]

Hi Vassili,

Good to see you here. Crucible made another batch of Cruwear and we will be using it in a model soon. Mostly for Joe.

We only have two US foundries to work with. What steels, (other than 440V, which met with much resistance) would you like to see?

sal

From Crucible - nothing really.

But can you confirm that Cruwear is made in Europe and this is why you ship it from Florida?

For production I think CTS204P, CTS XHP and CTS B75P are pretty good steels - time of this pathetic CPM S30V is way overdue. And of course ZDP-189 is pretty good steel.

In general all steel from top ten will be nice to see in production.

http://nozh2002.blogspot.com/2011/07/ed ... sting.html

So far anything what Carpenter doing is better then other manufacturers steel. I like to see more steels from them - even if it has well known composition. Seeing CTS B30 performance I may assume their micromelt somehow superior to other's PM technologies. In this case will be nice to see CTS 20CP (which is similar by composition to CPM S60V - which for now is best in known to general public CATRA tests).

S60V - 1030
S90V - 1014
S30V - 541
154CM - 468

As well as Carpenter versions of CPM S90V and Vascowear will be interesting to see - I expect them being way better then from Crucible.

I remember you promised K390 late 2011, 110V promiced Jan 2012, #14 with CTS 204? It will be nice to see them finally.

[nozh2002]

trust me, theres more nonsense to come

I see Spyderco forum full of it as usual... thoughtful comments which really contributes conversation from people whose expertise is well known.

[razorsharp]

Honestly, I am shocked my some the fanboyism on this forum, but some of the claims you make are just so weird, and your tests dont seem very consistent at all. Last i checked, IIRC Dozier D2 was better than everything in your tests and 1084 was close. I reckon you would see completely different results if you went to lower sharpness. Your results seem to be for the razor edge holding, but even then dont seem very consistent at all

[Ankerson]

From Crucible - nothing really.

But can you confirm that Cruwear is made in Europe and this is why you ship it from Florida?

For production I think CTS204P, CTS XHP and CTS B75P are pretty good steels - time of this pathetic CPM S30V is way overdue. And of course ZDP-189 is pretty good steel.

In general all steel from top ten will be nice to see in production.

http://nozh2002.blogspot.com/2011/07/ed ... sting.html

So far anything what Carpenter doing is better then other manufacturers steel. I like to see more steels from them - even if it has well known composition. Seeing CTS B30 performance I may assume their micromelt somehow superior to other's PM technologies. In this case will be nice to see CTS 20CP (which is similar by composition to CPM S60V - which for now is best in known to general public CATRA tests).

S60V - 1030
S90V - 1014
S30V - 541
154CM - 468

As well as Carpenter versions of CPM S90V and Vascowear will be interesting to see - I expect them being way better then from Crucible.

I remember you promised K390 late 2011, 110V promiced Jan 2012, #14 with CTS 204? It will be nice to see them finally.

CTS 20CP is Carpenters version of S90V... NOT S60V.....

CTS 204P is Carpenters vers of Bohler M390...

Just correcting a few of the many errors and misinformation in the above post..... For the rest of them it's not even worth my time and energy typing to correct them all.....

Anyway....

The thread is about the composite CPM S90V/CPM 154.......

[nozh2002]

CTS 20CP is Carpenters version of S90V... NOT S60V.....

CTS 204P is Carpenters vers of Bohler M390...

Just correcting a few of the many errors and misinformation in the above post..... For the rest of them it's not even worth my time and energy typing to correct them all.....

Anyway....

The thread is about the composite CPM S90V/CPM 154.......

The post was answer on Sal direct question if you did not noticed - I have quota there.

Did you start using baseless cuts to make real tests out of what you doing? Really you just
wasting you time and make fool out of yourself, seen not real results but what you expect to see.
Which is really unfortunate - all this effort you made just to support theories and myths here
made by all those experts... I know this is hard work - why are you wasting it? It is so easy to
make real testing out of what your are doing, but you and Phil just did not even try to fix simple
thing - are you afraid to admit that I am right? I keep telling this for now years and you every
time just close you hears and run away like a child... Try it!

CPM S90V C=2.3 Cr=14 Mn=1 V=9
CPM S60V C=2.15 Cr=17 Mn=0.4 Mo=0.4 Si=0.4 V=5.5

CTS 20CP C=2.25 Mn=0.5 Cr=12.8 Mo=1.3 V=9.25

It is not really "version of" but rather similar. May be it is bit closer to S90V.

[Ankerson]

The post was answer on Sal direct question if you did not noticed - I have quota there.

Did you start using baseless cuts to make real tests out of what you doing? Really you just
wasting you time and make fool out of yourself, seen not real results but what you expect to see.
Which is really unfortunate - all this effort you made just to support theories and myths here
made by all those experts... I know this is hard work - why are you wasting it? It is so easy to
make real testing out of what your are doing, but you and Phil just did not even try to fix simple
thing - are you afraid to admit that I am right? I keep telling this for now years and you every
time just close you hears and run away like a child... Try it!

CPM S90V C=2.3 Cr=14 Mn=1 V=9
CPM S60V C=2.15 Cr=17 Mn=0.4 Mo=0.4 Si=0.4 V=5.5

CTS 20CP C=2.25 Mn=0.5 Cr=12.8 Mo=1.3 V=9.25

It is not really "version of" but rather similar. May be it is bit closer to S90V.

I know what the alloy contents are....

I did try that thing you wanted me to just to see, but it made NO DIFFERENCE in the results as I tried to tell you before, and more than once that the wood isn't abrasive enough to effect the result.....

So there is no need to change the way I am doing the testing.

[razorsharp]

I can +1 that, I can cut a load of pine, and see barely any dulling what so ever

[nozh2002]

I know what the alloy contents are....

I did try that thing you wanted me to just to see, but it made NO DIFFERENCE in the results as I tried to tell you before, and more than once that the wood isn't abrasive enough to effect the result.....

So there is no need to change the way I am doing the testing.

Well, thank you for clearification, I see what is going on now.
Anyone can try to cut rope with wooden base and without and
see is there any difference or not and check who is telling what
here.

I am saying - it is huge difference in results, so big that it make results random or influenced.
Ankerson is saying - there is no difference.

I has nothing else to ask or to add - it is all self-explanatory.

[jabba359]

I'm not certain what Florida has to do with the country of origin of the steel, as no matter where it comes from -Crucible (New York), Carpenter (Pennsylvania), Bohler-Uddeholm (Austria), Hitachi (Japan) or whoever- the knives marked as Golden, CO (which the Cruwear mule is marked as such) get made at the Golden, CO facility from steel of all sorts of origins and ship out of that facility, so looking at the shipping location of the finished product gives no insight into the origin of the steel.

That said, my Cruwear mules shipped from Colorado. This is speculation, but the reason you may have received a box post-marked with Florida is most likely due to passing through the customs facility in Florida on its way out of the country to you, and has nothing to do with the original location where the raw steel was produced, as explained above. I'd wager that Cruwear is indeed produced by Crucible, as if it was produced by a superior competitor, there would surely already be a lawsuit against Crucible for misrepresenting another company's product as their own. If anything, Cruwear is likely a product of Crucible trying to better compete with the other companies that have passed them up.

As for the S90V/154CM steel, it sounds interesting, but I must admit that I'm slightly disappointed in the appearance. Unless I'm missing something in the pictures, I expected to see a defined "hamon" line like the ZDP/420J2 has. To me, it just looks like a regular, non-clad steel.

[nozh2002]

Well, what about this theory - Not every Mule is made in Golden, some made by 3rd party unde Spyderco brand
by Spyderco specification (as many knives are made by G-Sakai or some other Japanese manufacturers under
Spyderco brand). For example Cobalt Special Mule I am quite certain is made in Japan as well as ZDP-189.

So if some European company made Mule out of old stock of Vascowear and ship it to US using some
Florida harbor it is very well may be shipped from Florida rather then from Colorado.

BTW here you may read about what hamon really is:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/hamon.html

[Ankerson]

Well, thank you for clearification, I see what is going on now.
Anyone can try to cut rope with wooden base and without and
see is there any difference or not and check who is telling what
here.

I am saying - it is huge difference in results, so big that it make results random or influenced.
Ankerson is saying - there is no difference.

I has nothing else to ask or to add - it is all self-explanatory.

I cut my variables down to a min, so that is likely the difference..... And the reason for my consistent results that are repeatable over and over again.

And I work within a certain percentage variation along with the fact that I am not trying to score the steels from best to last as that's impossible to do by hand. That's the reason for the categories and not trying to rank the steels from best to last.....

I am NOT trying to do more than is physically possible without machine testing like CATRA and I have always said that from the very beginning....

[Ankerson]

As for the S90V/154CM steel, it sounds interesting, but I must admit that I'm slightly disappointed in the appearance. Unless I'm missing something in the pictures, I expected to see a defined "hamon" line like the ZDP/420J2 has. To me, it just looks like a regular, non-clad steel.

It's there, I can see it clearly, but then I am looking at it on a 32" Monitor...

[nozh2002]

I cut my variables down to a min, so that is likely the difference..... And the reason for my consistent results that are repeatable over and over again.

And I work within a certain percentage variation along with the fact that I am not trying to score the steels from best to last as that's impossible to do by hand. That's the reason for the categories and not trying to rank the steels from best to last.....

I am NOT trying to do more than is physically possible without machine testing like CATRA and I have always said that from the very beginning....

Well, sure your results is consistent and repeatable by you and show no difference if cutting on wooden base happen or not.
They are also exactly same as it is expected by knife community and please everybody. No surprises, no discoveries, no troubles.
In addition you are not telling anything about your method because you are "going to write book".

I see whole picture now. Thank you very much I have no more questions everything is pretty clear.

[Nederspyder]

Come on people, are we really going to do this again? Really?

[jabba359]

Well, what about this theory - Not every Mule is made in Golden, some made by 3rd party unde Spyderco brand
by Spyderco specification (as many knives are made by G-Sakai or some other Japanese manufacturers under
Spyderco brand). For example Cobalt Special Mule I am quite certain is made in Japan as well as ZDP-189.

So if some European company made Mule out of old stock of Vascowear and ship it to US using some
Florida harbor it is very well may be shipped from Florida rather then from Colorado.

BTW here you may read about what hamon really is:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/hamon.html

But if they were made in Florida, then they wouldn't say "Golden, CO USA Earth". They'd say USA or Florida or something, but not Golden, CO. The ones made in Japan say "Japan" (Cobalt Special) or "Seki-City, Japan" (ZDP, Damascus, Super Blue) and the ones made in China say "China" (9Cr18Mo). Following the principle of Occam's Razor would suggest that, rather than the multiple assumptions of a heretofore unused by Spyderco subcontractor in Florida using a steel that isn't made by the company who claims to make it and deceptively labeled as being manufactured in a specific city in Colorado and not Florida, it seems most plausible that your packaging had a shipping label applied in Florida and not some subversive plot to trick all of us. But hey, maybe Sal can chime in and verify the origins of the steel as well as location of manufacture of the knife.

Thanks for the link on hamon, some good info there. I knew what a hamon really was, that is why I put the quotation marks around it in my post, to indicate that I was using the term in a non-traditional, descriptive sense (due to a lack of a better term to describe the phenomenon).

It's there, I can see it clearly, but then I am looking at it on a 32" Monitor...

Now that I'm checking it out on a bigger monitor, I see it. On a small screen the S90V part looked like it was just darker shadowing from a bevel or grind line, but now I can see that it's actually the color difference between the two steels and not a bevel or grind line at all. Thanks!

[kbuzbee]

I knew what a hamon really was, that is why I put the quotation marks around it in my post, to indicate that I was using the term in a non-traditional, descriptive sense (due to a lack of a better term to describe the phenomenon).

How about "laminate line"?

Ken

[The Mastiff]

Vassili, is there any way to get the evidence of your substitution theory. The burden of proof is on the one making the allegations which would be you in this case.

My guess is the steel came from Bob Shabala at Niagara Speciality metals like the last batch probably came ( we can guess but in reality this is proprietary information until Sal states otherwise.)

Bob Shabala is a very good man and I always recommend doing business with him when possible. I have received several different steels from them including Cruwear . The steel from Niagara comes with a photocopy of the test certificate giving the exact composition , and heat number, plus the foundry it was manufacturered in. Unless it was a forgery it showed that it was indeed made by crucible. The exact composition is certified by Bob Shabala upon acceptance into their company to insure the quality of the steel is maintained and fits into the standards set for that steel. Thereupon it is then rolled and cut ( water jet or laser) into sizes and widths as ordered by customers.

They do have all the latest gear and are known for the quality and consistency as well as the excellent customer service and have most of the high demand cutlery steels in stock.

I would like to see a sheet from a company like Niagara before I would believe this. Recall they are not owned or controlled in any way by crucible. In addition, they have worked very hard for a long time to enjoy the reputation they currently enjoy. I can't see them jeopardizing it for something like this.

That's my opinion anyway and I don't mean to sound like I have information that's not available to everyone else to check on. Anybody can do the research

Thanks,

Regards,


Joe