Opinion on strops

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jon1all
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Opinion on strops

#1

Post by jon1all »

I am getting a Sharpmaker for Christmas (not really a surprise, but sometimes you just gotta be obvious with your wife so she gets you what you want! :D ).

So my question is... do I need a strop as well? I am moving up in my knife-sharpening methodology by going to the Sharpmaker (I currently just use a diamond stone & while I can put a serviceable edge on things it's far from superior and does take a significant amount of time (relatively speaking)).

Anyway, so should I get a stop as well (if so any recommendations)?

Thanks!
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Holland
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#2

Post by Holland »

i never used a strop until i got the wicked edge, now i don't know how i lived without it. Stropping takes the edge to a new level, and makes maintenance that much easier! but its not necessary i guess :D
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#3

Post by Cliff Stamp »

jon1all wrote: So my question is... do I need a strop as well?
If I put in front of you a freshly lapped waterstone with a uniform grit size and alongside of it one which was very dirty, the surface was not flat, it was loaded with metal particles, and you could see large difference in the abrasive grit size (the roughness/fineness was very uneven) - which would you choose.

The second stone is the equivalent of most strops and even the most carefully made ones would rank as very poor in consistency to even low grade stones, and they also load very fast, can not be lapped (in general), etc. .

The main reason people advocate stropping is that the strop will confirm to the edge of the knife and thus for people who can not sharpen a knife due to angle issues, a strop can be helpful because the disadvantages are out weighed by the fact that the edge is at least sharp.

However stropping, and even edge trailing, is by nature producing of a more fragile edge, unless extreme care is taken at which point the best that can hoped to be achieved is to equal the finish from a flat stone.

In short, practice with the stones rather than crippling yourself with the crutch that will develop from stropping.
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Well it's helped my Straight Razors

#4

Post by JD Spydo »

I'm in no way trying to dispute what Cliff just said because I'm sure he's done his homework in that area. But in all the experimenting I've done with the 2 straight razors I own I don't think I would have ever got them to shave as good as they do without that Russian Boar Strop that I use them on.

That's a very interesting comparison/analogy that he puts in front of us because in the past I've heard John Juranitch of RaZor Edge Systems say that one of their small stones when used a lot becomes like a strop. I had often wondered what he meant by that. Now it's more obvious with what I just read.

I will say that the stropping I've done with my Russian Boar strop that I obtained through a Barber Supply company has yielded me some good results. But I'm sure going to do some experimenting with my ultra-fine and other super fine stones to see if those will outperform a strop.

Interesting subject matter to say the least.
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Blerv
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#5

Post by Blerv »

Razors and knives though are used for different things. Is edge stability an issue with the cutting medium and frequency of stroping? Light pressure, low angles, etc.

Just a guess tho; I electric shave. Lol
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Jet B
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#6

Post by Jet B »

I really like convex edges and a loaded strop is a great easy way to maintain them. As long as you take the time to learn the proper angles/pressure to use.
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#7

Post by phillipsted »

Strops are not a magic bullet for getting a sharp edge. In fact, it is easy to dull a perfectly sharp edge very quickly with a strop - if you don't use the right technique, or you over-strop the edge.

TedP
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#8

Post by Cliff Stamp »

JD Spydo wrote:I'm in no way trying to dispute what Cliff just said because I'm sure he's done his homework in that area. But in all the experimenting I've done with the 2 straight razors I own I don't think I would have ever got them to shave as good as they do without that Russian Boar Strop that I use them on.
By all means dispute, it is the only way to have a productive dialogue, last time I checked I wasn't the risen christ, infallible in word or deed.

I was discussing edges with Chris earlier the year and he noted he was getting primary grind thickness far less than what I was using, he was running edges on large choppers in the 0.015" range and I have never been able to achieve stability there. As it turns out he was running a different beveling geometry which I started to experiment with and he is absolutely right, you can run choppers in the 0.010"-0.015" range with proper use of transition bevels. I had just never considering using the style of grind he used which I now know to be superior to what I thought was the optimal grind.

It is possible to get a finishing stone which is finer than the aus-grain and carbides in the steel, so I would ask if the edge was finished on said stone what improvement could be made on a strop. That is to say, forgetting about the data for a second, what physical change could a strop be making to the edge finished on the stone? It could not for example refine the scratch pattern, as that is already at the limit as the stone is beyond it.

What I believe is happening is just that the strop is allowing a higher angle tolerance than the stone, this isn't necessary, it is just an example of over bevleing, and a simple experiment can be made to show this as you can effectively make a stone behave like a strop in that respect by rocking the knife on the stone.
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#9

Post by dbcad »

jon1all wrote:I am getting a Sharpmaker for Christmas (not really a surprise, but sometimes you just gotta be obvious with your wife so she gets you what you want! :D ).

So my question is... do I need a strop as well? I am moving up in my knife-sharpening methodology by going to the Sharpmaker (I currently just use a diamond stone & while I can put a serviceable edge on things it's far from superior and does take a significant amount of time (relatively speaking)).

Anyway, so should I get a stop as well (if so any recommendations)?

Thanks!
Hi Jon1 :)

I don't believe you "need" a strop. Start with the Sharpmaker and see how satisfactory the results are for you :) Dfferent folks have different skill levels and expectations. What is right for one is not always right for another :) The SM is a terrific equalizer.

The definition of "sharpness" seems to vary from person to person. Some boil the definition down to cross sectional area of the edge while others define the concept more subjectively in terms of what they're cutting and the ease with which they are able to cut. Neither viewpoint is wrong, each is correct, just different for each individual :)

I couldn't sharpen a whit 3 years ago :eek: Now my crutches are a DMT guided system for reprofiling, SM for final bevels, and a 2u loaded strop. I'm not naturally talented, but the help of these tools and increased knowledge from the forum helps me to gain greater satisfaction from my knives edges :D Everything pushcuts newsprint with ease :D

Start with the Sharpmaker, learn, evaluate, and over time acquire what you feel is best for you :) The ultimate sharpening tool is knowing that all we are trying to do is make the sides meet in the middle with precision and minimum deformation.

Best to you on your personal sharpening journey :)
Charlie

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dbcad
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#10

Post by dbcad »

Cliff Stamp wrote:By all means dispute, it is the only way to have a productive dialogue, last time I checked I wasn't the risen christ, infallible in word or deed.

I was discussing edges with Chris earlier the year and he noted he was getting primary grind thickness far less than what I was using, he was running edges on large choppers in the 0.015" range and I have never been able to achieve stability there. As it turns out he was running a different beveling geometry which I started to experiment with and he is absolutely right, you can run choppers in the 0.010"-0.015" range with proper use of transition bevels. I had just never considering using the style of grind he used which I now know to be superior to what I thought was the optimal grind.

It is possible to get a finishing stone which is finer than the aus-grain and carbides in the steel, so I would ask if the edge was finished on said stone what improvement could be made on a strop. That is to say, forgetting about the data for a second, what physical change could a strop be making to the edge finished on the stone? It could not for example refine the scratch pattern, as that is already at the limit as the stone is beyond it.

What I believe is happening is just that the strop is allowing a higher angle tolerance than the stone, this isn't necessary, it is just an example of over bevleing, and a simple experiment can be made to show this as you can effectively make a stone behave like a strop in that respect by rocking the knife on the stone.
I very much appreciate constructive dialogue :D It's always great to continue learning :)

Intrigued ny your thought on using a stone as a strop. A strop is pretty forgiving. I would be interested in checking out a nice finishing stone.
Charlie

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#11

Post by Popsickle »

they are awesome.... that is all :D
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jon1all
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#12

Post by jon1all »

Thanks for all the help gentlemen... I will start with the SM and see where I go from there. I am sure compared to my current method I will feel like sharpening Superman with the SM! :)

Thanks again.
Apparently, arachnophobia is not a condition from which I suffer.... :spyder:
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#13

Post by SQSAR »

phillipsted wrote:Strops are not a magic bullet for getting a sharp edge. In fact, it is easy to dull a perfectly sharp edge very quickly with a strop - if you don't use the right technique, or you over-strop the edge.

TedP
Well put. Personally I think they can be useful but GREAT care needs to be taken to get the most out of them and not use them as a crutch. When re-profiling a new knife and taking its edge to the absolute limit of my sharpening ability I think stops are a part of the process, not a substitute for any other part of said process. I also routinely use a 3 micron loaded strop for quick maintenance and I can tell you without reservation that this increases time between EP sessions. On the flip side, , ,I think one can easily get along nicely without a strop if need be.
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#14

Post by Jet B »

If you buy a knife with a convex grind and you want to keep it that way, I think you pretty much need a strop or a mousepad and sand paper to sharpen it. Unless you are a master I guess.
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#15

Post by Cliff Stamp »

Convex bevels can be sharpened on flat stones, it isn't overly difficult and in fact you have much better control on a flat surface than one that compresses as you have less variables to control. If you want a convex bevel which tapes from 8-10 dps at the shoulder to 12-14 dps at the apex and blends into a 4-6 dps primary grind, how can you match this exactly on a piece of leather without using extreme pressure. It is trivial to do on a flat stone.
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#16

Post by Bill1170 »

I agree with Cliff that stones are easier to control than strops because they don't deform as much under pressure.

It is easy to get an edge that shaves arm hair effortlessly and slices paper cleanly, just by using the Sharpmaker correctly with the stock rods. If that is not good enough you can buy the UF stones and take it up a notch. Most people will be thrilled (and a bit intimidated) by the edge possible right off the stock SM.
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#17

Post by jackknifeh »

I believe you NEED you NEED you NEED a strop. Or maybe two.

I also believe that Cliff's explanation of stone sharpening is accurate.

I also believe that if using only stones you will need to have expensive stones of high quality if you want very sharp edges. I'm talking about edges sharper than you actually need of course for EDC use. An experienced sharpener can get better results from poorer tools (stones). An inexperienced sharpener will require better tools (stones and strops) to get the same results. Even then it requires a little practice. Using a strop is different than using stones. The reason is because strops are softer. That means you can't use push strokes or you will cut into the surface. You have to use trailing strokes which I think everyone will agree is a good way to finish an edge even when using only stones. I have used VERY inexpensive diamond paste on leather and balsa wood and VERY expensive (recently) diamond sprays and there is a difference in performance even though they both work. So, the cheap stuff is perfectly fine if money is an issue (it usually is). The expensive stuff should have a higher concentration of abrasive (diamonds) and cut faster. If you want to save some money buy the cheap stuff and add some extra strokes.

GET A STROP. There is a nice one on knivesplus.com for $20 or $25 that I had and it works great. You don't even need compound. It comes with something that needs to be rejuvinated by a couple of drops of olive oil once in a while. For a beginning strop it's GREAT. You will learn how to strop and not spend much money. Spend money later as you desire. You may find this strop is as much as you ever want. Your knives will be very sharp if they are already sharp when you start stropping (requirement) and then strop correctly.

If strops weren't very useful why have they been an established tool by so many great, skilled sharpeners for so many years?

Sharpening, like a lot of things becomes an individual thing and as long as you have a sharp edge when done, very little of the way you got the edge matters.

Recommendation: Boron carbide ($30 a bottle) and some horse hide. Glue the horse hide to a piece of wood. I recommend the side of a 2x4. This gives you enough room off the table for your fingers. Sand the smooth side with some 100 grit sand paper and apply the BC. Use trailing strokes making sure the angle matches your bevel or is a tiny bit lower. When you have a VERY sharp edge raise the spine a little bit and use 5-10 VERY LIGHT strokes. Use only the weight of the knife. Then use a hard felt deburring block (optional) to remove any unseen or undetectable (microscopic) burrs that may remain. This is what I would do if I only used one strop. This gives an edge good enough for any EDC pocket knife in the world (IMO :) ). If you want to get really crazy you can get some .5µ, .25µ, kangaroo hide (I have these) and various other stropping things to perfect the edge even more. But, I've found this level is just overkill. Any edge this sharp will loose the initial super-sharpness almost immediately when you start cutting anything except soft stuff like meat or vegetables. Cardboard laughs at the ultra-super-sharp edge. :D The super sharpness will be gone quickly leaving a very usable sharp knife.

Sorry to be so long winded. One more thing. GET AN INEXPENSIVE QUALITY STROP. :) I doubt you will regret it.
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#18

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

I believe your energy is best directed in getting the max sharpness(forming your apex) out of the stones first. When you can get hair whittling off the stones, then you'll be much benefited by a strop or two.
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#19

Post by Blerv »

The question is if you can attain high sharpness using the three waterless Spyderco benchstones why would some want to deal with the extra equipment and mess? Where does it fit in the sharpening process? No rhetoric intended; just trying to wrap my head around it for practicality sake.

Let's say you have a few things to set an edge. A clamp system or diamond/aggressive flat stone for example. Then you have a well balanced grit system for polish and daily maintenance. After you move from the ultra-fine does someone strop to a finish?
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#20

Post by Cliff Stamp »

jackknifeh wrote:
An experienced sharpener can get better results from poorer tools (stones). An inexperienced sharpener will require better tools (stones and strops) to get the same results.
I don't actually think this is really true, it is like saying if you are inexperienced and you want to start fishing then you should immediately buy the most high end expensive fishing rod you can get.

I would say it is more likely that only experienced people could ever see a difference in the finished edges from very high end stones because unless your skill is high the resulting edge will just just due to the lack of skill not lack of ability on the stones.

I would not in general recommend you start with the cheapest equipment you can find as that often can be difficult, but very expensive equipment generally is only very useful to a very niche class of people.
If strops weren't very useful why have they been an established tool by so many great, skilled sharpeners for so many years?
If we never changed what we did because people always did it that way we would still be living in caves without fire. Simply because something was done by a lot of people doesn't mean it is the best way to do it. People in general do not make comparisons in a rigorous manner and conclusions are often held simply due to bias. How many people do you know who advocate stropping have done even one double blind experiment.

I would ask the very simple question, what do you think a strop can do to the edge of a knife physically which has already been sharpened optimally off a stone off the desired grit level?
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