Opinion on strops

[Evil D]

I have been following this thread from the start, and I have to say that the longer it goes the more confused I get!

I must be about to learn something.

Polished-Toothy
Convex-Flat
Stones only-Strops only
Stones then strops to finish
Push cut-Draw cut

Hard to sift through it all and get some clarity. :confused:

It would be interesting to get a view point from someone like Sal. Seeing how he invented the Sharpmaker, I'm guessing he has some good insight into what really makes an edge sharp... But, he's probably too smart to jump into this bed of coals. Haha.

To me there's just a lot of going in circles about what is and isn't sharp and how to get from A to B, when for me that was never the debate at all. Edge retention is the only thing won or lost in all of this if you ask me. I can get a knife stupid sharp on a strop or a stone, that part doesn't matter, it's the edge retention of either result that makes the difference to me.

[Cliff Stamp]

I've always thought that you can vary the pressure with any stone to get a much finer scratch pattern.

If this was true then you could mirror polish a blade with an xx-coarse DMT stone.

There is a maximum depth scratch pattern which would be the full height of the abrasives, there is also a minimum which would be the range in particle height, i.e., how much on average the particles are above the mean, the standard deviation. It would be very difficult to grind finer than that because you would not even be able to let the blade touch the stone.

About the finest I have seen is ultra-light honing and a lubricant. I posted up results sharpening + pictures of this a year or so back showing the difference finishing on a fine india hone with just 5-10 grams. However in general it is simpler just to use a finer stone than to try to make a coarse one act very fine, the speed of cutting is also gutted with ultra-light honing.

Diamond stones will cut with lighter force because they are so hard, diamond is harder than steel as steel is harder than butter.

. I must say I cringed every time that edge ran across that stone.

I was not sure that would apex an edge cleanly, only one way to find out. A few people have asked can you do the same thing with a more expensive / complicated steel, you can, I will put up a vid on that shortly using a Hinderer or Wilson.

[jackknifeh]

I have been following this thread from the start, and I have to say that the longer it goes the more confused I get!

I must be about to learn something.

Polished-Toothy
Convex-Flat
Stones only-Strops only
Stones then strops to finish
Push cut-Draw cut

Hard to sift through it all and get some clarity. :confused:

It would be interesting to get a view point from someone like Sal. Seeing how he invented the Sharpmaker, I'm guessing he has some good insight into what really makes an edge sharp... But, he's probably too smart to jump into this bed of coals. Haha.

I think what gets confusing is the fact that different people will have different experiences with tools and technique. There is no one way that is the best I don't think. As long as the edge comes together in the middle and has no burr. Results, that's the only important thing. Get some stones of pretty good reputation as far as the results they produce and work with them. They don't need to be the most expensive. Congress tools has great stones at very good prices. Spyderco has GREAT quality products. Once you get proficient with those try an inexpensive strop and try it. Take your time. Knives plus has a good one for about $20. Work with this stuff and see how it works for you. You may be happy with it forever.

You can get different results with the same stone by using different amounts of pressure. You don't HAVE to cut the entire depth of the abrasive on a stone. Another good thing I like to do to even out a scratch pattern is to change the direction of my stroke by 90°. Use a circular pattern if you want to try that. Instead of scratches only perpendicular with the edge you will have some parrallel with the edge. It smooths out the pattern. I do this every time I sharpen I think. It works. Then go to the next stone. Play with it. You may not get the exact results I get. Yours may be better. My way may not be the best. It works very well though. With an inexpensive strop you can try it and get whatever results you get, then decide for yourself. YOUR results are the ONLY thing that matters. What I think doesn't mean anything compared to your results. Also, don't worry about math or charts or any of that stuff until you have enough experience with sharpening that you can't get your knives any sharper. Then if you want to get your knives sharper you can learn about math and charts, or, you can just lighten your strokes a little. That will make more difference than anything I believe.

I don't know your experience of course or what tools you have now. I believe all of this info is good but useless until it is put to use. Then each person can learn and do what works for them. What I do works. I may not get the best edge retention on the planet but it is a lot better than it was a few years ago. Is that because I have better blade steel, better sharpening tools and/or skills? All or some of the above? The answer is yes. I have some or all of the above. :)

Good luck and have fun. :spyder: :D

Jack

[Jet B]

I think what gets confusing is the fact that different people will have different experiences with tools and technique. There is no one way that is the best I don't think. As long as the edge comes together in the middle and has no burr. Results, that's the only important thing. Get some stones of pretty good reputation as far as the results they produce and work with them. They don't need to be the most expensive. Congress tools has great stones at very good prices. Spyderco has GREAT quality products. Once you get proficient with those try an inexpensive strop and try it. Take your time. Knives plus has a good one for about $20. Work with this stuff and see how it works for you. You may be happy with it forever.

You can get different results with the same stone by using different amounts of pressure. You don't HAVE to cut the entire depth of the abrasive on a stone. Another good thing I like to do to even out a scratch pattern is to change the direction of my stroke by 90°. Use a circular pattern if you want to try that. Instead of scratches only perpendicular with the edge you will have some parrallel with the edge. It smooths out the pattern. I do this every time I sharpen I think. It works. Then go to the next stone. Play with it. You may not get the exact results I get. Yours may be better. My way may not be the best. It works very well though. With an inexpensive strop you can try it and get whatever results you get, then decide for yourself. YOUR results are the ONLY thing that matters. What I think doesn't mean anything compared to your results. Also, don't worry about math or charts or any of that stuff until you have enough experience with sharpening that you can't get your knives any sharper. Then if you want to get your knives sharper you can learn about math and charts, or, you can just lighten your strokes a little. That will make more difference than anything I believe.

I don't know your experience of course or what tools you have now. I believe all of this info is good but useless until it is put to use. Then each person can learn and do what works for them. What I do works. I may not get the best edge retention on the planet but it is a lot better than it was a few years ago. Is that because I have better blade steel, better sharpening tools and/or skills? All or some of the above? The answer is yes. I have some or all of the above. :)

Good luck and have fun. :spyder: :D

Jack

Thanks for the input Jack. :D

I started with sandpaper on boards, picked up a sharpmaker and had good success. I then got a Wicked Edge and had very good success with that. The last step with the WEPS is stropping and I honestly have probably over-stropped some knives in the past because I experienced that smooth, polished edge thing where it will push cut like a demon but you can slide your fingers along it like glass. I have also recently started stropping knives and forming convex edges with an old mouse pad and sand paper. Through all of this, I have read a multitude of information on the subjects and there are many many people who advocate stropping and I honestly got some knives very very sharp with the sandpaper and mouse pad. This thread kinda turned my thinking upside down with what Cliff has said about stropping and got me really thinking and researching again.

In any case, I usually put a polished 30' inclusive edge on my knives with the WEPS and then go back and do a rougher micro-bevel at 40' inclusive and then just strop a little bit and very lightly to make sure there isn't a microscopic burr. I seem to get a decent aggressive edge that pushes and slices fine for my purposes which is mostly household cardboard and other general daily tasks. I got the idea of the toothier micro-bevel from reading posts by Jim Ankerson.

Thanks for all the information here guys! I'm enjoying reading everyone's different experiences and points of view even as confusing as it is.

[jackknifeh]

Thanks for the input Jack. :D

I started with sandpaper on boards, picked up a sharpmaker and had good success. I then got a Wicked Edge and had very good success with that. The last step with the WEPS is stropping and I honestly have probably over-stropped some knives in the past because I experienced that smooth, polished edge thing where it will push cut like a demon but you can slide your fingers along it like glass. I have also recently started stropping knives and forming convex edges with an old mouse pad and sand paper. Through all of this, I have read a multitude of information on the subjects and there are many many people who advocate stropping and I honestly got some knives very very sharp with the sandpaper and mouse pad. This thread kinda turned my thinking upside down with what Cliff has said about stropping and got me really thinking and researching again.

In any case, I usually put a polished 30' inclusive edge on my knives with the WEPS and then go back and do a rougher micro-bevel at 40' inclusive and then just strop a little bit and very lightly to make sure there isn't a microscopic burr. I seem to get a decent aggressive edge that pushes and slices fine for my purposes which is mostly household cardboard and other general daily tasks. I got the idea of the toothier micro-bevel from reading posts by Jim Ankerson.

Thanks for all the information here guys! I'm enjoying reading everyone's different experiences and points of view even as confusing as it is.

Sounds like you have a system that works for you. And that Ankerson guy usually has really good tips. :D


Jack

[Ankerson]

In the end use the method that works the best for you and for your uses.

As long as it works there isn't any wrong way to sharpen or use a strop.

The Sharpmaker is an excellent tool for maintaining edges, ceramic is harder than any steel or the carbides in any steel.

[Jet B]

In the end use the method that works the best for you and for your uses.

As long as it works there isn't any wrong way to sharpen or use a strop.

The Sharpmaker is an excellent tool for maintaining edges, ceramic is harder than any steel or the carbides in any steel.

Yeah, even after getting my Wicked Edge I still use my Sharpmaker for touch ups. It's just so quick and convenient. The WEPS works fast, but sometimes I just don't feel like carting it out and going through the clamp process for a touch up. It still is the boss for re-grinds though.

This whole business about stropping fatiguing the metal at the edge seems like it should only become a problem if you are doing excessive stropping with not enough cutting agent right? I mean, a bit of stropping with either sand paper, diamond paste, or compound should just gently remove some metal and form a mini-convex at the edge right? I personally really started to like convex edges for fire-craft after using my Fallkniven F1, it really seems to hold that sharp edge for a long, long time. *(And bites into wood in a nice way). Longer and better it seemed to me than my V edge VG-10 blades.

And yes, I know this is all just splitting atoms. It's fun to learn when it's a hobby.

[Ankerson]

Yeah, even after getting my Wicked Edge I still use my Sharpmaker for touch ups. It's just so quick and convenient. The WEPS works fast, but sometimes I just don't feel like carting it out and going through the clamp process for a touch up. It still is the boss for re-grinds though.

This whole business about stropping fatiguing the metal at the edge seems like it should only become a problem if you are doing excessive stropping with not enough cutting agent right? I mean, a bit of stropping with either sand paper, diamond paste, or compound should just gently remove some metal and form a mini-convex at the edge right? I personally really started to like convex edges for fire-craft after using my Fallkniven F1, it really seems to hold that sharp edge for a long, long time. *(And bites into wood in a nice way). Longer and better it seemed to me than my V edge VG-10 blades.

And yes, I know this is all just splitting atoms. It's fun to learn when it's a hobby.

Yeah, pretty much, less is always better when it comes to removing metal.

I normally only strop for touch ups, but that's on a SIC loaded strop, smooth leather so it's like using a stone for the most part, but I only strop until it brings the edge back.

Ceramics can be a really fast way to do touch ups, a Sharpmaker rod used freehand and just a few passes can bring an edge back in seconds usually.

[Evil D]

So I just put "my edge" on my new Manix 2, and I couldn't help but think about this thread.


Here's the interesting thing that i'm doing right now. I have two half sets of stones....two low grit Shapton glass stones, and then the higher grit EP stones. Obviously they're different thicknesses. I've been using this to my advantage. I set the bevel with the two course Shapton stones and then use the higher grit EP stones to polish out the very edge. The difference is only about 1 degree higher from the difference in stone thickness. Granted, i can't polish out the entire bevel because the thinner stones don't hit the entire bevel, but it works fantastic for removing burrs, and once i've finished with the 3k tape, the edge is stupid sharp. The last thing i do is make extremely light/short strokes with the 3k tape (not even the weight of the stone, and not even an inch long per stroke). At this point i can't see where a strop is going to improve upon that edge any further. Under my 10x loupe I can't see any trace of a burr. I guess i could get a stronger loupe, but at this sharpness it will push cut any paper you put in front of it, whittle hair, split oxygen atoms etc. I actually regret blowing $50 on all this diamond paste I bought for my strops. Maybe I can sell it on Craigslist..

[chuck_roxas45]

So you gonna break out the EP and the tapes to maintain the edge?

[Henry - get both]

Its much more simple to just carry something ceramic.

I think that some people just prefer the dulled but smooth feel that strops offer :D

[chuck_roxas45]

Its much more simple to just carry something ceramic.

EvilD did say he finished with the 3K tapes. That's why I asked him what he was gonna use to maintain the edge. He could always use ceramics but he won't be near that half micron abrasive size of the 3K tapes.

I think that some people just prefer the dulled but smooth feel that strops offer :D

Yep, some probably do but I wonder why you seem to have a problem with that. Each to his own I say, but you keep taking potshots...

I wonder why some people just can't accept that others don't like what they like. :confused:

[razorsharp]

seeing that ive been mentioned here, i suppose i should add my opinion :D

Ill start off saying " I like strops"
The edge in the following video was done on 2000 grit Sandpaper then i used all the micromesh lapping films (12, 9, 3, 1, 0.3 microns) all edge leading , then I stropped on MDF wood at 2.5 and 0.5 microns (went up because the diamond paste is more consistent than micromesh with dust on it haha), at this point , i have started alternating heel tip-tip heel. I then went to balsa with 0.1u Cubic boron Nitride paste. I then did about 10/side passes on 0.1u CBN on leather. Finishing off on plain leather. Here is the result:
[video=youtube;FmjllFdVArA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmjllFdVArA[/video]

As CliffStamp mentioned, I am leaning towards harder strops (wood) as they are closer to stones, except I can go up to finer grits than stones come in. with a solid strop, you dont risk rounding the edge. But I most always finish with a soft strop- what you have to remember is less is more, too little does nothing and too much weakens the edge
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Back to my normal polished edge routine, it will go up to 0.1 or 0.5u microns using all the same media, except I wont do tip to heel- heel to tip.

For burr removal if I form one , I use an unloaded denim strop to remove it, then I will go back to the stone and carefully re-apex (or sandpaper or what ever)

For coarse edges, if I form a burr, ill strop it off on the denim with a few degrees added to the angle, and carefully sharpen back to apex, then ill refine it matching the angle on denim, then ill do 5/side on a 0.5u diamond loaded leather strop to polish the tips of the teeth- crazy sharp.

All in all, as my experience gets greater, the more i realize I don't need strops all that much, they're only great for:

Burr removal

edge refinement

Polishing the teeth on a coarse edge

an extreme polish,- but only if you finished on very fine stones, otherwise you can end up with an edge with minimal bite as the apex isn't properly formed.

also, im tired and rambling, some stuff I say is subject to change as I learn more, or when im more energized lol
:)

[jackknifeh]

So you gonna break out the EP and the tapes to maintain the edge?

I made an EP stone holder. With it you can mount stones or tapes, anything with the blank on it. I made it so it will hold stones as short as the 4.25" DMT stones if I glue the EP blank to the back of them. It will hold 4" - 6" stones. This way you don't need the whole EP for quick touch ups but can still use the stones or tapes or whatever. I got some aluminum blank bars at Lowe's and cut my own for the length of the stone. I even have the Spyderco med and fine grit 5" stones on EP blanks.

[chuck_roxas45]

I made an EP stone holder. With it you can mount stones or tapes, anything with the blank on it. I made it so it will hold stones as short as the 4.25" DMT stones if I glue the EP blank to the back of them. It will hold 4" - 6" stones. This way you don't need the whole EP for quick touch ups but can still use the stones or tapes or whatever. I got some aluminum blank bars at Lowe's and cut my own for the length of the stone. I even have the Spyderco med and fine grit 5" stones on EP blanks.

Yeh, that's a good idea Jack. I do just use the sharpmaker for quick touch ups. I also have a pair of 240 grit moldmasters for clipping to the sharpmaker for when my knife gets dull, and I still am too lazy to break out the EP.

[Cscoop]

Since I got a strop about a year ago I now use it primarily to maintane a sharp edge. About 3-4 light strokes in each direction while watching TV every night. Now I only go to my SM about once a month. Seems like a no brainer because it is so easy.
If you have a good magnifying glass you will be able to see the difference a strop makes.

[Cliff Stamp]

I mean, a bit of stropping with either sand paper, diamond paste, or compound should just gently remove some metal and form a mini-convex at the edge right?

Yes, it is possible with :

-a clean strop
-fresh compound which is designed/intended to cut steel
-light force

To make the strop act like a stone and not fatigue or round the edge.

However it is simpler to micro-bevel rather than depend on the strop to add some highly variable/random increase in edge angle which is going to depend on the force applied, compaction density of the strop, edge angle/thickness, number of passes, etc. .

As a general note, in regards to the "do what works for you", the curious thing about this is that no one would actually want Spyderco to actually use this mentality when they are making knives and it is obvious that they certainly do not have it.

A non-Spyderco example of this was when Buck Knives changed the way they were sharpening, which always "worked for them", and it was obvious that it came from outside influences and how they switched in methods ended up producing an edge which was very similar to Spyderco (reduction in angle, switch to a much harder finishing medium to avoid rounding, and reduction in buffing extent).

It is also obvious that Spyderco doesn't simply use what works for them but looks at what works for other people and utilizes this to ensure they are presenting a competitive product, i.e., is there any information out there which we can use to make our product better, more efficient, reduce cost, etc. .

Sharpening isn't subjective, there are simple definitions of sharpness in the literature (which agree with common sense definitions) and there is an ISO standard even developed. It also isn't an art, it is obviously a science, i.e. making a decision on what is the best choice of grit finish for a particular cutting task isn't similar to a subjective decisions on suitability of colour in a painting.


Now it is clear you can make less than optimal decisions, for example I am currently using cheap benchstones to sharpen to develop skill and flexibility in technique. But it is clear, and I have noted it many times, these are inferior to waterstones in multiple aspects. In order for discussions to be productive, this "everything is ok" view needs to be replaced for suitability of purpose to actually evolve skill/knowledge.

[chuck_roxas45]

Cliff, you really have a serious case of "lastworditis"...

But then I'm probably on your ignore list already. :D

[Ankerson]

Things can be as complicated or as simple as one wants them to be.

Personally I like it simple and that's the reason why I did my own testing, a lot of testing to find what is optimal in the way I use my knives, now it's simple and efficient. :)

Common since says that with increased skill developed over time sharpening will get easier as the person gets better at it.

The tools used to sharpen do vary as we all know, some are better than others as with most things we buy.

Levels of sharpness and edge refinement will vary depending on the person and their needs and skill set.

Same goes with edge angle as that can be and is adjusted depending on needs and or wants.

[Donut]

Ya know what buddy i don't like your attitude. This one time i sharpened a knife so sharp, i push cut phone book paper too fast and it sliced through the space time continuum and transported me back in time exactly one year. It really sucked because i had to go out and rebuy all my knives that i didn't own a year prior. Since then i've had to scale back my sharpening skills to avoid such mishaps.

:rolleyes:

Next time just make sure you have all of the knives you didn't have one year ago on your person. :)