Tuff not so Tuff...

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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Jet B
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Postby Jet B » Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:18 pm

Ed Schempp wrote:I'm on my way home for a wonderful time in Golden. I'm disappointed that I didn't get the opportunity to avail myself to Spyderco's extensive evaluation equipment to deal with this problem. To my knowledge and experience Spyderco is the most responsible company in dealing with exactly this type of problem. I spent hours in the assembly area watching Ti-militarys being assembled. On every assemblers bench is a secure piece or UHMD plastic that is well worn from several hard spine whacks tho ensure this problem does not occur.
I've seen a large box of knives of one model and one manufacture sitting in Sals office that was never shipped to the end line user that did not meet specification. Spyderco did not ship any of these knives and ate the cost of the models development and production.
I'm going to stick my neck out an speculate on possible causes of these failures. There are two possible explanation, First is the possibility of the lock bar insert being a thousandth or two short, the second is the radiused ramp being slightly proud.
Experience has taught me that most liner or frame lock can be disengaged by spine whacking creating an exact harmonic vibrating the lock bar and causing the lock to fail. By intensive testing and engineering and not rushing this knife to production I believed that this would not be a problem with this design. Either of these problems would be discovered with Spydercos advanced equipment and their and my extension experience.
I have a great deal of trust in the sub contractor that produced this knife, his work, compared to most manufactures of quality knives is the best I have seen.
I have have a huge respect for spyderco and their ethics which has grown over the near dozen years that I have had the honor of working with this company.
I want to thank my English instructors for teaching me that when ever I put something in writing I should expect that at some point confidentiality will not be respected, and to prepare myself for the reaction of folks that my communication is not directed. The Internet and one stroke forwarding has made those lessons more than true.
I totally trust Sals decision not to ship this model until this issue is resolved. When I return home I will try and recreate the problems mentioned and discover the cause of these problems...Take Care...Ed
Thanks for your input Mr. Schempp, I will make sure my knife gets into the folks at Spyderco once I get a chance to communicate with them. It's all boxed up and ready to go. Just to give you some further information, I am able to do the same thing with my liner lock Military and it doesn't budge. In fact it feels like I would just end up pushing the knife right into the wood before that lock would budge.

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The Mastiff
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Postby The Mastiff » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:26 am

Jet,

Thanks for taking the time to photograph the phenomena , and post it here. Thanks also for sending the knife in for diagnosis. When they figure it out , and have an idea whomever else might encounter it all of us Tuff owners will better be able to make an informed decision about this situation. It helps us all in the long run, as well as Spyderco as a company.

It may be easier to throw it away but it helps us other owners when people take the time to do what's right. Ultimately good can now come of this.

Once again, thanks,

Joe
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800


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sal
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Postby sal » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:52 am

Thanx Joe, I agree.

The "culture" that we're trying to create is one of cooperation between: Factories, designers, outside makers, customers and associates that we all may gain. More of a "symbiotic relationship" than a "business chain". Learning doesn't have to be adversarial.

sal

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Postby DedRok » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:25 pm

Hey Sal & Ed. I haven't posted in this thread yet (read it all)... but to bring a little light into this, I just wanted to let you know that even with these claims I wouldn't have any problems buying a Tuff.

I know in business, you will have 9/10 people have a good experience, they will tell only a couple people. If 1/10 people have a bad experience, they will tell everyone they know... and when you put it on the internet everyone will hear it.

I know there are a few bad apples once in a while, but I truly believe that the Spyderco Warranty has my back 100%.
Spyderco please make a wire clip version of the Manbug/Ladybug!

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Postby jabba359 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:40 pm

Is it strange that this thread (which I've read in its entirety) has made me want the Tuff even more than I did originally? I probably won't be able to get one until after the holidays, but I think it has moved from my "maybe" list to my "must buy" list.
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Minibear453
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Postby Minibear453 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:09 pm

There's no such thing as bad press? Although I'm very curious about what's causing the failures.
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Postby JNewell » Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:20 pm

The Mastiff wrote:Jet,

Thanks for taking the time to photograph the phenomena , and post it here. Thanks also for sending the knife in for diagnosis. When they figure it out , and have an idea whomever else might encounter it all of us Tuff owners will better be able to make an informed decision about this situation. It helps us all in the long run, as well as Spyderco as a company.

It may be easier to throw it away but it helps us other owners when people take the time to do what's right. Ultimately good can now come of this.

Once again, thanks,

Joe
I would echo that. I may try replicating Jet's "test" and seeing what happens. Question for Jet: does the knife lock up normally now, or does lockup appear to have been compromised?

John

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Postby Cliff Stamp » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:58 pm

The Deacon wrote:... one of the supposed "pluses" of a Reeve Integral style frame lock over a Walker style liner lock is that your grip tends to keep the lock engaged, rather than potentially helping it accidentally disengage.
Integrals can be white knuckle opened just like liners depending on the characteristics of an individuals grip and how they hold it. I demonstrated this years ago on the forums and a number of other people confirmed they could duplicate it as well. In general you can not count on your hand actually enforcing the lock because :

-you flesh will easily compress enough to allow the lock to disengage if it comes under a sudden load

-your reaction time to tighten your grip will not be nearly fast enough in a dynamic situation

-you can squeeze your hand and actually get a shear force across the bottom of the handle (i.e. act on the lock to open it)

It is a hypothetical which was propagated years ago, was never demonstrated to any degree by anyone who advocated it and in fact was myth-busted years ago. Not to mention that often times the clips are installed right over the integral locks so the hand can not even directly compress them, and if you switch from right to left handed the forces are very different in hand so promoting a lock which has a stability linked to which hand/grip you use would be a bit of a liability issue unless that was clearly disclosed as a limitation - i.e., only use this knife in a right handed hammer grip for proper function of the lock.

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Postby JudasD » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:44 pm

Cliff Stamp wrote:Integrals can be white knuckle opened just like liners depending on the characteristics of an individuals grip and how they hold it. I demonstrated this years ago on the forums and a number of other people confirmed they could duplicate it as well. In general you can not count on your hand actually enforcing the lock because :

-you flesh will easily compress enough to allow the lock to disengage if it comes under a sudden load

-your reaction time to tighten your grip will not be nearly fast enough in a dynamic situation

-you can squeeze your hand and actually get a shear force across the bottom of the handle (i.e. act on the lock to open it)

It is a hypothetical which was propagated years ago, was never demonstrated to any degree by anyone who advocated it and in fact was myth-busted years ago. Not to mention that often times the clips are installed right over the integral locks so the hand can not even directly compress them, and if you switch from right to left handed the forces are very different in hand so promoting a lock which has a stability linked to which hand/grip you use would be a bit of a liability issue unless that was clearly disclosed as a limitation - i.e., only use this knife in a right handed hammer grip for proper function of the lock.
So does this mean that a framelock is just as good as a liner? is one "better" than the other or should they be treated the same?

Thanks,
JD

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Blerv
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Postby Blerv » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:48 pm

It doesn't advance the issue/non-issue at hand.

Looking forward to results shortly assuming Spyderco is sent a knife suspect of failure.
:spyder: Blake :spyder:

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Postby The Deacon » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:08 am

Cliff Stamp wrote:Integrals can be white knuckle opened just like liners depending on the characteristics of an individuals grip and how they hold it. I demonstrated this years ago on the forums and a number of other people confirmed they could duplicate it as well. In general you can not count on your hand actually enforcing the lock because :

-you flesh will easily compress enough to allow the lock to disengage if it comes under a sudden load

-your reaction time to tighten your grip will not be nearly fast enough in a dynamic situation

-you can squeeze your hand and actually get a shear force across the bottom of the handle (i.e. act on the lock to open it)

It is a hypothetical which was propagated years ago, was never demonstrated to any degree by anyone who advocated it and in fact was myth-busted years ago. Not to mention that often times the clips are installed right over the integral locks so the hand can not even directly compress them, and if you switch from right to left handed the forces are very different in hand so promoting a lock which has a stability linked to which hand/grip you use would be a bit of a liability issue unless that was clearly disclosed as a limitation - i.e., only use this knife in a right handed hammer grip for proper function of the lock.
Hench my use of the word "supposed". Regardless of whether what you claim is true, it does not make the hand position used in that test any less unnatural and contrived, nor does the hand position being contrived mean I think it acceptable that the lock released during the test.

Bottom line, this certainly appears to be an issue that needs to be evaluated by Spyderco and it's good they'll finally be getting a chance to do so.
Paul
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BAL
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Postby BAL » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:46 am

mark408 wrote:If you remember me so well then you know I have a long and perfect purchase and sales reputation on BF and all the other knife forums.

The fact is you do not know me.
Dude, I think that we all know you.

BAL
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Postby BAL » Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:08 am

Sal and Ed,
You guys are the best. A real man can sleep at night knowing that he has lived his
life in the best way that he knows. He respects those around him and treats people
like he wants to be treated. His top priority is taking care of his family, followed closely
by taking care of his work and the things that bear his name and affects others.
A man does these things because that is what a man is supposed to do.
It is an honor to know both of you men, even if it simply through this forum.
Take care and sleep well.

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The Mastiff
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Postby The Mastiff » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:33 am

The "culture" that we're trying to create is one of cooperation between: Factories, designers, outside makers, customers and associates that we all may gain. More of a "symbiotic relationship" than a "business chain". Learning doesn't have to be adversarial
Another goal to start trying to live up to.

Anyways, Thanks for the response Sal. I could never have a problem with someone attempting to resolve troubles whether W&R applicable or not. There are times when I'm not very tolerant due to due to pain from joints needing to be rebuilt in the future and I do say stuff I probably shouldn't.

Things that get me going for example might be something like a person attempting to tell Ed what is what about his design. Ed's qualifications, years of experience, and his designs speak for him, as does his reputation as a very decent person. Whereas the guy trying to lecture him thinks his experience modding and pimping knives, and selling them along with others he trades for makes him a knife expert and professional. Knowing of this guy from other places I suppose makes me even less tolerant than maybe I would normally be.

Likewise,others seem more determined to prove a point than to resolve any problem they created, or even legitimately have out of the box. I know I need to work on any of my responses to that, and I will. I know for a fact Spyderco doesn't need my help, and I sincerely don't want to cause trouble for Spyderco, or it's other customers.

For those who don't yet know me please know that I would not ever be impolite in any way to someone just reporting a problem with a spyderco product. If I was like that I would have been kicked out long ago. I like to learn, and am buying the same knives as everybody else here so if there is a problem, I want to know about them the same as everybody else for their own reasons.

Speaking for myself I too desire non adversarial communications. I darn sure won't be learning anything if I run off folks with unnecessary rudeness. I suppose the threads/posts that push my buttons most when I'm not feeling good I'll just work harder at not getting involved in them unless I'm in a position to provide needed or asked for information from a neutral or helpful position.

Sorry If I caused any unnecessary problems.

Joe
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800


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Postby KardinalSyn » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:10 am

Look forward to an update from Spyderco on the testing done on the submitted knife when possible. Thank you.
:spyder: Centofante3 (C66PBK3), ParaMilitary2 (C81GPCMO), Endura4 (C10P), GrassHopper (C138P), Military (C36GPCMO), Perrin PPT (C135GP), Squeak (C154PBK), Dragonfly 2 Salt (C28PYL2), Military M390 CF (C36CFM390P), R (C67GF), ParaMilitary2 CTS-XHP (C81GPOR2), Tuff (C151GTIP), Ladybug & Perrin Street Bowie (FB04PBB)being the newest.

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Postby Slash » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:42 am

I don't own a tuff, nor plan to. I suspect the lock bar needs some adjusting inward or something(hard use) is causing it to weaken prematurely.
Good luck with your "tuff" knives. Whatever the problem, spyderco will make it right.

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Postby DCDesigns » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:45 am

sal wrote:Threads like this are discouraging. Not only do I lose sleep over them, but they also cost us thousands in lost sales.

Hi Cliff, The original poster hasn't posted again (unless I missed something) and he hasn't sent the knife in. Mark was not the OP.

Regarding the OP, I've met DC and I got the impression he was a good kid. Perhaps he just blew off Spyderco, or he feels bad about his post. Perhaps he will return? I know he took 6 months to pay for his Bushcraft blade that I chased down for him, but he did collect it. Perhaps time constraints are not a priority, or he just forgot. Hard to believe he was being malicious. Maybe he was just venting. I vented once. :o

We can banter words till the cows come home, but until I can see the knife in question, test it and get it under a microscope, there isn't much I can say or do, other than to apologise. Ed has been here all week and he too was hoping to receive one or more of the knives in question. As of Friday, nothing has come in. It's a new model and we need to watch closely.

Mark,

I didn't say you didn't try to reach me, I said i didn't get it. If you can send me the dates of your emails, letters or ?, I can try to chase them down. Try to keep in mind that I travel a great deal. Between travel prep, travel and followup, I'm gone about half the time. Considering that I get several hundred emails a day, some stack up. that's why I have staff.

Either way, my response can only be: Please send in the knife. It is not possible for me to discuss a failure about a knife without having the knife. The best way is always to send in the knife, perhaps include a note to me. Charlynn will usually chase me down on the question, especially with a new model.

We always take care of our customers and have been doing so for more than 30 years. That's how we got our reputation. We've many times taken care of overseas customers as well. We either replace the knife or buy it back. On a few occassions, our customers have been unfrienbdly, in which case we usually just pay them for their purchase and suggest they go elsewhere. Most of this couold have been avoided if the original failed piece was returned. We certainly jumped on the Nilakka when a problem appeared. And Pekka, like Ed was all over it right away.

As far as knives go, we ship thousands of knives each week. Problems are not common and those that do occur are a small percentage of what we produce. We've yet to get any Tuff's back. At any rate, we are going to stop shipping the model until we can get this sorted. Thanx for all of your thoughts and input. Shame it had to get "testy".

sal


Hey Sal, listen man, Im really sorry if I had caused any negatives to the company. I dont want you to miss a wink of sleep or a penny that could be earned. If you will read what my posts were as the OP, I was really just trying to get others opinions about what may have happened. I think there may have been one line in the original post that could have been perceived as "venting", but for the most part I came looking for answers, and if anyone else had had similar experiences.

(SINCE its been 15 pages, here is what my first post was, you decide whether or not it sounds "malicious"...)

[CENTER]"So for the last month or so, the Tuff has been my go to yard working knife. I felt that since this knife was touted as a folding fixed blade tank, it could quite easily take care of the mundane garden tasks I had outside.

One of these tasks I use a folding knife for occasionally is delimbing these small cherry trees we have in the yard. I use the sticks for fetch with my 120 lb great dane pitbull mix Lola (i find that I need to use hardwood otherwise she destroys the stick before she can get it back to me.) I do not consider this "hard use," I have done the same task countless times with my Pm2, and even with my fluted military with no issues.

The limbs I was chopping are less than 1" in diameter, and the Tuff usually just blasts right through them in a couple strokes. I chop downward in a "v" to remove chips faster, letting the blade fall with gravity and the weight of my arm and little more force. One chop went sort of deep and got the blade stuck, so I went to pull up on it to get it out, and the lock folded :( . I though I had accidentally disengaged the lock, so I relocked it again, and pushed on the spine... it folded again, quite easily... I also noticed the lock disengages MUCH easier compared to how it used to hurt my thumb when I first got it, its like night and day. Id say the lockbar has about 25% the pressure behind it it used to. Man, I really wish they had gone with a rotoblock with this design, then I wouldnt be scared to use it again... I guess its my Lionspy/bowie for garden work from now on...

Im wondering if I got a knife out of spec or somerthing, because it seems to me this knife should handle that task and much more with ease, without any fear of the lock folding on me... So I fear its off to the spyder spa to see if there is anything they can do, but I figured Id share my experience here first. Boy am I glad I wasnt able to take this one apart!

Just goes to show you, not everything will live up to the hype!"

[/CENTER]

BUT the responses I got were anything but helpful. Most began by attacking me, saying I was intentionally abusing it, or whatever. A few of you came to bat for me, and for that I was thankful, but for the most part I was written off as a neptune-knives like spinewhacker or something. It left a bad taste in my mouth for the whole forum. THAT is why I have not been back. Everytime I logged on, I just didnt feel like talking with yall after my last thread. It has nothing to do with the knife or Spyderco, and everything to do with the people on this forum.

Do I feel bad about my posts? No. but thats because in my posts, I didnt rag on the knife or spyderco at all ( please re read them), I was just looking for opinions about my own knife. (Is it not pretty common practice to post up when you have a problem with a model?!) When I logged off last, this thread was 4 pages long or so, and I have not caught up, nor do I think I will. It is clear this thread has taken on a life of its own away from what my own intentions were. I will gladly delete it if you want me to. I do still have the knife, I have been using it for lighter cutting work, and the lock hasnt failed again yet. I wasnt sure whether or not I was going to send it back, but now I will for sure.

I have been very busy in my own life, so please excuse the time gap, knives really arent on the upper teir of my priority list at the moment.

Ps- I did really enjoy meeting you and your son at Blade! It was there that I asked if you still had the bushcraft. It would not have taken 6 months to buy from you if I had recieved a response in an email when we were originally talking about me buying the second. I didn't want to mail out a check without first hearing back. I tried again a couple weeks later... I chocked it up to you being busy and travelling, as you said in your own post.

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Jet B
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Postby Jet B » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:56 am

JNewell wrote:I would echo that. I may try replicating Jet's "test" and seeing what happens. Question for Jet: does the knife lock up normally now, or does lockup appear to have been compromised?

John
The lock up is still the same, nothing is damaged. For normal tasks, I wouldn't even have a concern about the lock closing. The only reason I "tested" mine was because I use this knife like it was intended and could possible have a situation where it will close on my hand while using it hard.

I still really like my Tuff. It's a seriously beefy, tough knife. Mine just has something out of spec with the lock I suspect.

In any case, Spyderco has responded to my email and my knife is getting shipped back today so Sal should have it in his hands this week to properly assess what is going on.

Anyone reading this thread please don't let it deter you from this knife if it peaks your interest. Just because 1 or 2 locks are a bit off out of thousands of knives shouldn't stop you from enjoying this little tank of a knife. This knife has easily the best fit and finish of any I have ever purchased. Seeing the knives from the Taichung maker for the first time really impresses. They are real works of functional art, and the Tuff is no exception.

I'm eagerly awaiting having mine fixed or replaced.

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Blerv
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Postby Blerv » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:04 am

It wasn't the best phrased post (your last word was "hype") and a very volatile topic (anytime lock failure is discussed).

If at any point you said something along the lines of, "This obviously doesn't seem as Spyderco intended so I will make best efforts to get it back to them for inspection." You would have had a standing ovation and probably a Nobel Peace Prize.

I'm sorry you had to go through a gauntlet DC. People often forget that internet forums are comprised of passionate people clouded in anonymity. It's like crawling into a shark tank while bleeding and being astonished when they want to bite.
:spyder: Blake :spyder:

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Postby DCDesigns » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:16 am

Blerv wrote:It wasn't the best phrased post (your last word was "hype") and a very volatile topic (anytime lock failure is discussed).

If at any point you said something along the lines of, "This obviously doesn't seem as Spyderco intended so I will make best efforts to get it back to them for inspection." You would have had a standing ovation and probably a Nobel Peace Prize.

I'm sorry you had to go through a gauntlet DC. People often forget that internet forums are comprised of passionate people clouded in anonymity. It's like crawling into a shark tank while bleeding and being astonished when they want to bite.
do you doubt there was a ton of hype about this knife? For me, other than maybe the Yo2, this model was talked up more than just about any other. That is all I was referring to. And I must confess at the moment I typed that i was not a happy camper, so if a little bitterness was translated into my tone, im not surprised. Still, one questionable line is not "spewing negativity" as it was called. I was really thinking people would have been more helpful, and less dickish. thats all.

I think I may just be over talking about knives online. I sell more than I buy now anyways.


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