CIVILLIAN SALT - Would you buy one?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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gbelleh
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Postby gbelleh » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:13 pm

I pretty much agree. The Lil Matriarch might be a better candidate for yellow H1.
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Blerv
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Postby Blerv » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:18 pm

Or even the Matriarch1 as it's FRN and linerless. All of this assuming the market for rust-proof defense knives is one that needs filling.

I'm sure there are Spyderhawk H1's still around. It's about half an inch shorter and quite viable. If you can't defend yourself with one of those I would upgrade to a shotgun =).
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Evil D
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Postby Evil D » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:28 pm

Personally, i plan on getting a Civilian and purposely letting it rust up just so i can also give the bad guy tetanus when i cut him with it ;)
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The Deacon
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Postby The Deacon » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:37 pm

JD, my answer would be this. I think you will agree that most folks prefer the serrated versions of both the Matriarch and Civilian. Sal's testing has shown that H-1 holds an edge better when serrated than any other steel they've tested. Both models are made in Japan, and have hollow ground blades, so H-1 is a viable option. Rust resistance, even when not essential, should be beneficial rather than a problem, especially for LEOs who tend to neglect their equipment. So the only downsides to H-1 compared to VG-10 are that it does add slightly to the cost and that it scratches more easily. IMHO, it
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Postby RedRunner » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:15 am

I'd buy one regardless of the scale material.

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Postby akaAK » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:55 am

Evil D wrote:Personally, i plan on getting a Civilian and purposely letting it rust up just so i can also give the bad guy tetanus when i cut him with it ;)
lol

With my limited experience, I am not sure how much the PE in H1 would sell, H1 really does shine in SE.

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bh49
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Postby bh49 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:13 am

To: OP.
Absolutely no. H1 will increase the cost and will not make Civilian any better, probably worse.
Evil D wrote:H1 is known for holding an edge extremely well when serrated. Beyond that I guess it could be useful for surfers to defend against shark attacks.
H1 is work hardening steel. Initial hardness in mid fifties. With use, after several sharpenings it will increase on SE to lower-mid sixties and only then edge retention will increase. So if somebody defending him/herself with Civilian for few hours daily, than this person will see edge retention improves over VG10. And the rest of us will get only better corrosion resistance. But I like your idea about sharks :)
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Postby JD Spydo » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:16 am

The Deacon wrote:JD, my answer would be this. I think you will agree that most folks prefer the serrated versions of both the Matriarch and Civilian. Sal's testing has shown that H-1 holds an edge better when serrated than any other steel they've tested. Both models are made in Japan, and have hollow ground blades, so H-1 is a viable option. Rust resistance, even when not essential, should be beneficial rather than a problem, especially for LEOs who tend to neglect their equipment. So the only downsides to H-1 compared to VG-10 are that it does add slightly to the cost and that it scratches more easily. IMHO, it
Well if there really is a notable advantage to using H-1 on this type of blade then I say>> LET IT BE DONE. Again I'm wondering about other aspects of using this steel for the Captain and Matriarch. I've never heard how much tensile strength that H-1 has compared to VG-10 and other carbon based steels. Because tensile strength is a serious factor with both those models. Because in the past there were other steels used that the tip broke off easily. I heard that GIN-1 and ATS-55 both posed a problem in that area. The H-1 blades I've used a lot>> and I'm particularly speaking of my H-1 Spyderhawk seem to have really good tensile strength>> but that by no means is a scientific test because it works good on "JD's" cutting chores.

But hey if it is an improvment or would add advantages to that type of blade then I say go to it ASAP.
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Postby KardinalSyn » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:53 am

I like the idea of a H1 Civilian. I will not buy one though. I do hit the beach every week and like to carry an all purpose blade. The Civilian will serve a more specific purpose than what I require a knife for. I do like the idea of a Para2 style H1 blade a lot more though. That will make my trips to the beach more enjoyable, I think.
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Postby Evil D » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:40 am

bh49 wrote:To: OP.
Absolutely no. H1 will increase the cost and will not make Civilian any better, probably worse.

H1 is work hardening steel. Initial hardness in mid fifties. With use, after several sharpenings it will increase on SE to lower-mid sixties and only then edge retention will increase. So if somebody defending him/herself with Civilian for few hours daily, than this person will see edge retention improves over VG10. And the rest of us will get only better corrosion resistance. But I like your idea about sharks :)
This all seems to go against what Sal has said about testing H1 SE...if he tested a new knife and got those results, do you think he sharpened it a bunch of times first? I was under the impression that all that edge retention was from the work hardening that happens when 1) grinding the hollow grind and then 2) grinding the serrations? Seems if Sal had to go through a lot of sharpening to get it to that point, he would've mentioned that.

Me personally, i still can't wrap my mind around this work hardening thing. Seems to me that any steel that's hardened from sharpening would then just be removed again the next time you sharpen it. I'm no metallurgist though so i dunno.
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Minibear453
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Postby Minibear453 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:17 pm

I don't really believe the extra retention is worth the cost. It's for SD, which means you wouldn't use it for any other tasks, and it would remain sharp until you need it. And when you do need it, it would be a few slashes, nothing that will need a lot of edge retention.
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bh49
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Postby bh49 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:13 pm

Evil D wrote:This all seems to go against what Sal has said about testing H1 SE...if he tested a new knife and got those results, do you think he sharpened it a bunch of times first? I was under the impression that all that edge retention was from the work hardening that happens when 1) grinding the hollow grind and then 2) grinding the serrations? Seems if Sal had to go through a lot of sharpening to get it to that point, he would've mentioned that.
I cannot recall Sal's comments, but Kristi posted on the subject a while ago
TazKristi wrote:H1 is a precipitation-hardened alloy. And yes, it is also work-hardened. Meaning that anything that you do that causes heat through friction will harden the steel further; it’s also important to note that tests have shown that it does not become brittle. The work-hardened properties of H1 have been proven by analysis independently performed by Crucible Specialty Metals. It is this that explains why an H1 blade with a SpyderEdge has better edge retention than it's PlainEdge counterpart. In the end, the analysis from Crucible found the Rc at the spine was 58, however at the edge it had increased in both the PlainEdge (to 65 Rc) and the SpyderEdge (to 68 Rc).
Kristi
Probably we understood this comment differently. I never used knives with H1, but remember some comment from users about lower than VG10 initial edge retention. So I assumed that the blades were not brand new, but work-hardened prior to Crucible test. If initial hardness of edge of H1 in mid to upper sixties, nobody should have a problem with initial edge retention.
Hopefully some knowledgeable steelnuts will comment on this
Evil D wrote: Me personally, i still can't wrap my mind around this work hardening thing. Seems to me that any steel that's hardened from sharpening would then just be removed again the next time you sharpen it. I'm no metallurgist though so i dunno.
During the sharpening you are removing some steel, but you also hardening the edge deeper. Make sense?
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
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Blerv
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Postby Blerv » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:54 pm

The heat/wear from a grinder does indeed harden H1 per Crucible's testing. Serrated blades at 68 rc are pretty insane and the testing proves it.

I have not seen any official documentation or even independent tests on user sharpening increasing edge retention. I do know you are slowly increasing the angle and lowering the initial sharpness unless rebeveling as you go.

H1 blades are extremely tough and the edges hold up quite well to cutting given the corrosion properties. Serrated really is another ballpark altogether. It would probably be a better steel than VG10 minus the cost and tendency to have more spine scratches. Having a "mostly rust proof" knife isn't much of a selling point though and somewhat confuses the product line.
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Postby mikerestivo » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:32 pm

I have to chime in again, and say that for my point of use, H-1 would be great. I don't care about hardness, ease of sharpening, scale color, or SE vs PE - my only issue is corrision. The knife for me is like a life-raft on a cruise ship - I'm only going to use it if I am in real trouble.

Actually, I have used my Matriarch once - to cut up a tube to make it easier to carry home after a flat tire.

As long as it would hold enough of an edge for me to fend of a rabid dog or woodchuck or whatever, I am fine. I would see the ideal target market for this being folks that want to carry a self-defense specific folder while they excercise (i.e. running, cycling, or otherwise sweating). There may not be enough of a market out there to make this happen. Naturally, since I am in that demographic, I hope it does.

I didn't initially see things from EvilD's perspective: that my rust problem adds to the potency of my weapon, which is a pretty cool way to look at it.

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Blerv
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Postby Blerv » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:42 pm

mikerestivo wrote:II didn't initially see things from EvilD's perspective: that my rust problem adds to the potency of my weapon, which is a pretty cool way to look at it.
Evil keeps a bag full of Poison Dart Frogs. True story.
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mikerestivo
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Postby mikerestivo » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:56 pm

Blerv wrote:Evil keeps a bag full of Poison Dart Frogs. True story.
Now that may be the next big thing: a self-defense blade with a poisoned tip, from the factory.

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Postby KardinalSyn » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:24 am

Spyderco and any other H1 blade manufacturer will have a great customer base in the Navy. I mean with any country, not just the states. Dependent on how a State Naval Force will equip its personnel and it's procurement practices.

I would think that this might offer us more products in H1 in a range of tactical designs. Sadly though, the warrior and blade like the jump master remain too tactical for civilians like me. If I bust out a Warrior in public to slice an apple, someone will call the cops.

Perhaps there might be a Spyderco H1 Navy (in line with the Millie) purpose built to be used by the men and women who safeguard the seas. Just an idea.
:spyder: Centofante3 (C66PBK3), ParaMilitary2 (C81GPCMO), Endura4 (C10P), GrassHopper (C138P), Military (C36GPCMO), Perrin PPT (C135GP), Squeak (C154PBK), Dragonfly 2 Salt (C28PYL2), Military M390 CF (C36CFM390P), R (C67GF), ParaMilitary2 CTS-XHP (C81GPOR2), Tuff (C151GTIP), Ladybug & Perrin Street Bowie (FB04PBB)being the newest.

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Blerv
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Postby Blerv » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:22 am

To my knowledge they already sell quite a few black Pacific Salts to the armed forces. Combined with the Jumpmaster, Warrior, and now Whale Rescue the military has great access to quality specialized knives.
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Postby tikkidaddy » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:24 pm

I love the civilian...I have two of the first models that ever came out..w/aluminum handles and the rubber inlays...

Ive never used them for anything but light duty package opening, and for the WOW factor.

The Cold Steel Black Talon I own has been used w/ no point or edge damage to dissasemble a couch like a hot knife thru butter.

The tip of the civilian scares me. In a SD situation, if u hit bone, the tip is probably done.

I'd buy a civil salt SE as a collector though...Rather have a harpy all SS PE...for "Hannibals" sake.
"I hate the thought of killing anything, its the last thing I would advise, but as a matter of survival, all creatures are fair game."-- Les Stroud.

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Pockets
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Postby Pockets » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:40 am

I don't carry a knife for SD, as my area is pretty safe and I wear running shoes :D I have heard that S shaped blades cut really well, and I like SE H1, so I might buy one anyway if they were ever made.


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