What is the next step after the sharpmaker?

[DRKBC]

Forgive if this is something that has been asked a million times before. I use my sharpmaker and its been great. But I have seen the results that a lot of you get from stroping and using different polishing compounds etc.. What I am wondering is what would be a good sort of "starter kit" for a person to assemble to move to the next level of sharpening. Just a list of things you have found to be handy such as different compounds that you think are good etc.
Also do I have to spend a lot to do this?
Thanks.

[11tonytiger]

Forgive if this is something that has been asked a million times before. I use my sharpmaker and its been great. But I have seen the results that a lot of you get from stroping and using different polishing compounds etc.. What I am wondering is what would be a good sort of "starter kit" for a person to assemble to move to the next level of sharpening. Just a list of things you have found to be handy such as different compounds that you think are good etc.
Also do I have to spend a lot to do this?
Thanks.

I guess the next step for you would be surgery ready sharp instead of hair popping sharp? I guess if you're sitting around cutting paper and showing off how sharp your knife is and amusing yourself you may need something different than a Sharpmaker,for me a working guy the Sharpmaker does just fine on my working knives.

T

[dalefuller]

Forgive if this is something that has been asked a million times before. I use my sharpmaker and its been great. But I have seen the results that a lot of you get from stroping and using different polishing compounds etc.. What I am wondering is what would be a good sort of "starter kit" for a person to assemble to move to the next level of sharpening. Just a list of things you have found to be handy such as different compounds that you think are good etc.
Also do I have to spend a lot to do this?
Thanks.

I use the Sharpmaker as my main sharpening tool. I have all 4 sets of rods for it and they work well. I've tried other systems including an Edge Pro. Nothing is as quick and simple for me as a Sharpmaker, so I keep a couple of them around. One has the diamond / gray rods in it, the other has the fine & UF rods. If I need to do any serious metal removal, as in resetting a bevel, I use diamond benchstones for the heavy work and then switch to the Sharpmaker to start "fine tuning" the new bevel.

On to your original question. After the UF Sharpmaker rods, I go to a balsa strop with 1 micron diamond spray on it. Then I move to a leather strop with green CrO₂ paste (close to .5 micron). I finish up with a fairly hard bare leather strop and this strop is what I use for touch-ups after light usage. I try not to remove metal until it's necessary. The strops will usually take care of anything I've done to my edges, even from outdoor work in my garden or woods. Since I strop a lot more than I "Sharpmaker", my EDC edges tend to be slightly convex. That's fine, it just helps improve their strength a bit even if it does take a tiny bit away from their keenness.

Lately, I've been preferring the edge that I get by stopping wth the Fine Sharpmaker rods and using just the bare leather strop to straighten and lightly polish the final edge. It's a bit toothier and less polished than going through every step, but I've found that it cuts through most of the stuff I cut quicker and easier that a highly polished edge. And it's a lot quicker to create and maintain on the blade steels I use.

[DRKBC]

Thanks Dale,

Great information, so for the balsa strop do you actually just use a piece of Balsa wood? I have heard that you are better to buy a decent leather strop rather than make one so that the leather is cased, any particular brand of strop you have found to be good? Where do you buy the paste? Also, I have seen photos of really high polished edges on the forum, is that a result of the stropping?

[DRKBC]

Thanks Tony I will keep that in mind for the next time I am sitting around showing off cutting up paper and amusing myself.

[mattman]

DRKBC-
Evidently you have not found the Maintenance, Tinkering, & Embellishment sub-forum over at BF, yet?

[Cliff Stamp]

The Spyderco UF rods are just that ultra-fine, if you go light you can cut the effective grit in half, if you lightly mist them with water you can half them again - that is a sub-micron finish. I really would doubt that you would want anything more than the Sharpmaker with the UF rods. How sharp are your knives off of the Sharpmaker?

[rnbtexas]

I haven't seen that sub on BF yet, thanks for that tip.

[DRKBC]

The Spyderco UF rods are just that ultra-fine, if you go light you can cut the effective grit in half, if you lightly mist them with water you can half them again - that is a sub-micron finish. I really would doubt that you would want anything more than the Sharpmaker with the UF rods. How sharp are your knives off of the Sharpmaker?

They are pretty sharp, so there is no need to strop them?

[dalefuller]

Thanks Dale,

Great information, so for the balsa strop do you actually just use a piece of Balsa wood? I have heard that you are better to buy a decent leather strop rather than make one so that the leather is cased, any particular brand of strop you have found to be good? Where do you buy the paste? Also, I have seen photos of really high polished edges on the forum, is that a result of the stropping?

It's an actual piece of balsa wood. HandAmerica makes sharpening gear and diamond sprays that I really like. I have one of their kits with base, balsa wood, spray, and leather finishing strop. I also use a green loaded strop block from Knives Plus. The balsa wood gives a nice surface for the 1 micron spray. Like Cliff said... a light touch is one of the keys to working with either the UF rods or strops... a very light touch. The weight of the knife blade itself is all the pressure I want when I'm finishing an edge. There's a nice sticky on BF with the different grit / micron sizes of various sharpeners compared so you can see which ones are finer and which are more coarse. Many mirror polished edges come from stropping with very fine abrasives down to bare leather, although some people have said they can achieve that with a bench grinder and paper wheels. I just don't use anything that's powered when doing edges.

Blade Forums has a great M, T, & E section with a lot of people that are extremely knowledgable about all phases of knife making, maintenance, and modding. Someone has already mentioned that site. It's well worth checking out if you haven't already.

[DRKBC]

It's an actual piece of balsa wood. HandAmerica makes sharpening gear and diamond sprays that I really like. I have one of their kits with base, balsa wood, spray, and leather finishing strop. I also use a green loaded strop block from Knives Plus. The balsa wood gives a nice surface for the 1 micron spray. Like Cliff said... a light touch is one of the keys to working with either the UF rods or strops... a very light touch. The weight of the knife blade itself is all the pressure I want when I'm finishing an edge. There's a nice sticky on BF with the different grit / micron sizes of various sharpeners compared so you can see which ones are finer and which are more coarse. Many mirror polished edges come from stropping with very fine abrasives down to bare leather, although some people have said they can achieve that with a bench grinder and paper wheels. I just don't use anything that's powered when doing edges.

Blade Forums has a great M, T, & E section with a lot of people that are extremely knowledgable about all phases of knife making, maintenance, and modding. Someone has already mentioned that site. It's well worth checking out if you haven't already.

Prefect Dale that's just what I was looking for I will take a Look at HandAmerica and also give the Blade forums site a look, that should get me off to a good start.

[phillipsted]

Clay at Wicked Edge also makes Balsa strop paddles for his WEPS system. He sells HandAmerica diamond spray to go with them.

TedP

[1623]

There seems to be a bit of interest in this gentleman's gear as well:

http://stropman.com/

[Cliff Stamp]

They are pretty sharp, so there is no need to strop them?

In general, if you are seeing a dramatic increase in sharpness by stropping it then the following is likely :

1) The edge was not cleanly finish on the stones

2) The edge is likely to be over stressed / deformed and have fairly poor edge retention

The Spyderco UF has been reported to be about 3-4 micron, with light force and water you can easily get this to 0.5-1 micron. There are few steels which have the capability to even take a finish which is finer that that.

The question to ask is - why would you expect a hone that you basically make by adding some abrasive at random to a surface to give a better result than an extremely consistent stone finish of a sintered ceramic? The main reason is that most (if not all) strops are slightly flexible and the inherent nature of trailing sharpening tends to produce a well aligned edge without the care needed on a stone.

But again, the edge durability/edge retention will end up being lower.

However if strops work for you then they work for you, I would only suggest that if you really spend time on some stones you will not end up going back to stropping.

[mattman]

Thanks for the insight, Cliff!
I have never heard of using water with the ceramics... very interesting! I will definitely be giving this technique a try!!

[Evil D]

As far as a strop goes, I went to Big Lots and bought a cheap leather belt and dug out a stick of red polishing compound from my aluminum polishing kit. Works well enough. There is an obvious difference between a stropped and unstropped blade.

[Zatx]

I made my own strop bat. Well my brother made the actual wooden part of the bat since he is a custom cabinet maker. I bought a sheet of fine leather from ebay for $15.00, cut it into strips and glued it to the bat. I use DMT Diamond paste on the leather. I have a side for 6, 3, and 1 micron, and leave one side plain which I think is close to .25 or less micron.

For the amount of cutting I do, a brief trip through the varying grits keeps a hair popping edge on my knives without ever having to use the sharpmaker or any other stones. I only have to do this when I notice my blade doesn't slice through the envelopes as smooth as I like when I open my mail. That's about every 3 weeks or more.

[dbcad]

Even though I've been using the SM for the past couple of years I realize my technique is far from perfect :o . I do find that if I'm focused and having a good day the edge I can get from the UF stones is a hair better than the edge I can get with a 2um loaded strop. I've been trying to better my SM technique, it will never be perfect, nothing in this world is. The tip on using them wet will be tried :) The SM is a terrific tool limited only by the skill of the user :)

A strop is a bit more forgiving, for me a bit more relaxing, and using one with proper technique and well stone sharpened blade can yield excellent results :D Most folks don't get near the nutty "sharpness" levels many of us aspire to here We're talking 99% plus It's a lot easier to polish the whole edge using a strop. The SM can do the same and better providing the same result if skill level were up to the task. I recognize that my own skill level with the SM can still be improved.

Whatever works for the OP so long as they are happy with their results :)

The next step for me would be freehanding consistently good edges with bench stones. I've got a bit more practice coming before I would feel comfortable there :rolleyes:

[DRKBC]

In general, if you are seeing a dramatic increase in sharpness by stropping it then the following is likely :

1) The edge was not cleanly finish on the stones

2) The edge is likely to be over stressed / deformed and have fairly poor edge retention

The Spyderco UF has been reported to be about 3-4 micron, with light force and water you can easily get this to 0.5-1 micron. There are few steels which have the capability to even take a finish which is finer that that.

The question to ask is - why would you expect a hone that you basically make by adding some abrasive at random to a surface to give a better result than an extremely consistent stone finish of a sintered ceramic? The main reason is that most (if not all) strops are slightly flexible and the inherent nature of trailing sharpening tends to produce a well aligned edge without the care needed on a stone.

But again, the edge durability/edge retention will end up being lower.

However if strops work for you then they work for you, I would only suggest that if you really spend time on some stones you will not end up going back to stropping.

Thanks Cliff and all the other forum members for all your tips and good advice.

I am using the SM with very good results so far on the majority of the blade (other than my technique on the tips needs work).

I was under the impression that the strop would make the edge a little sharper and smooth out any inconsistencies in the edge. I had also wondered if by using a strop for routine maintenance that I would end up removing less material than if I used the SM exclusively but I am not sure if thats the case. Does the strop impregnated with an abraisve compound take off less, the same or more material?

Also, are you saying that the stropping itself will stress and deform the edge?

[Cliff Stamp]

I was under the impression that the strop would make the edge a little sharper and smooth out any inconsistencies in the edge. I had also wondered if by using a strop for routine maintenance that I would end up removing less material than if I used the SM exclusively but I am not sure if thats the case. Does the strop impregnated with an abraisve compound take off less, the same or more material?

A strop is just a hone that you make. Just consider this, go down to the beach, get some fine sand, put it on a concrete block and pound it with a hammer a little until it gets broken down. Now take a piece of wood, smear on a layer of glue and then pour the sand on it. You basically have made a very inexpensive hone. Would you consider that this would be as effective as an actual say fine india hone? It would not and it would be obvious for a number of reasons.

The same holds true of any strop you make, you are basically taking a surface and putting some kind of abrasive on it in a semi-random manner. There is no reason to expect that would produce a better edge than one sharpened on a very consistent man-made hone. Brent Beach, many years ago too a number of 100X magnification shots of edges honed on a very fine abrasive and then stropped on various media / backings and the stropping would consistently degrade the edge. It has to again due to the nature of the "hone" and that is all a strop is, a hone you make.

Generally strops are made with very fine abrasives, but again they are no finer than the UF spyderco ceramics when used with very light force and a little water.

Also, are you saying that the stropping itself will stress and deform the edge?

Yes, this is why an edge appears to respond so fast, it isn't abrasion, it is deformation. Knife edges deform rapidly, much faster than they wear. If you take a lightly used knife to a strop it appears to "sharpen" very fast, however all that is being done is pushing that weakened metal back into alignment. That edge will go dull very quickly, much faster than a freshly sharpened edge.

But again, if stropping produces results - then strop, but I guarantee if you, with a little more effort on a stone, you will not return to stropping because you will consistently edge up with both sharper and stronger edges which can both maintain a high push cutting ability while being aggressive on a slice.