compression lock vs. tri-ad lock?

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chuck_roxas45
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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:02 am

wec12 wrote:I still can't figure out why Tri-Ad lock would be stronger than lockback...
Hhhhhmm yes, I can't figure it out too but Demko hangs a lot of weight from it. Whether that's useful in "real world use" or not, I dunno. But I sure find it interesting. I do find any developments in locks and folding knife technology pretty interesting.

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Postby STR » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:11 am

Folding knives are a convenience tool. We must never forget this. Way back when someone was carrying their big ole fixed and said, gee I wish it was more convenient to carry around all day and someone said, hey lets make it fold. We can't ever forget that it folds! We do, often times we think they are invincible but the truth is they are not. They are a compromise for the better, proper tool able to work yes, and often times even replace a fixed in lots of uses but they are not a fixed. No matter the lock, they are a convenience first and always. While some locks do give the impression one has the equal to a fixed in their pocket this is illusion only and do not be deceived. It is debatable which is stronger. I don't really care as both locks are stronger than the screws. I've seen heads pop off on both destroying screws before the locks even began to give out. I've seen Para 2 models pop shut from taps seeming to indicate some are surprised by sudden shocks to the spine and I've seen many Triad tests now of course so I'd have to give the nod for strength to the Triad. If anything I think these new advances lead some to think they no longer even need a fixed blade. That is a mistake. I think if you have the proper tool available, even if the Para 2 on your pocket, or The Triad whatever can do that job even though it is a tough job not usually done with folders and you use the folder anyway, ignoring the better judgement to use the proper tool when it is available that you are falling prey to the illusion. Don't get off in your head in la la land just because its a new improved state of the art lock mechanism. Yeah its great but don't lose sight that it folds.
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Postby 2cha » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:29 am

STR wrote: I've seen Para 2 models pop shut from taps seeming to indicate some are surprised by sudden shocks to the spine
Never heard of this before--whacking loose with the older cbbl happened, I don't buy it with the compression lock.

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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:38 am

STR wrote:Folding knives are a convenience tool. We must never forget this. Way back when someone was carrying their big ole fixed and said, gee I wish it was more convenient to carry around all day and someone said, hey lets make it fold. We can't ever forget that it folds! We do, often times we think they are invincible but the truth is they are not. They are a compromise for the better, proper tool able to work yes, and often times even replace a fixed in lots of uses but they are not a fixed. No matter the lock, they are a convenience first and always. While some locks do give the impression one has the equal to a fixed in their pocket this is illusion only and do not be deceived. It is debatable which is stronger. I don't really care as both locks are stronger than the screws. I've seen heads pop off on both destroying screws before the locks even began to give out. I've seen Para 2 models pop shut from taps seeming to indicate some are surprised by sudden shocks to the spine and I've seen many Triad tests now of course so I'd have to give the nod for strength to the Triad. If anything I think these new advances lead some to think they no longer even need a fixed blade. That is a mistake. I think if you have the proper tool available, even if the Para 2 on your pocket, or The Triad whatever can do that job even though it is a tough job not usually done with folders and you use the folder anyway, ignoring the better judgement to use the proper tool when it is available that you are falling prey to the illusion. Don't get off in your head in la la land just because its a new improved state of the art lock mechanism. Yeah its great but don't lose sight that it folds.
Great insight Mr. Rice. Although I am very interested in lock and other folding knife technology, I am not one to use my folder to the point that it strains, if I have any choice in the matter. Besides, I value my knife enough that I won't destroy or even risk premature wear on it where it's really stressed. I do admit that when I first didn't realize the limits of folders, I tended to want to believe that a folder could do a fixed blade's job. I have since learned otherwise(I'd have a few broken knives if I didn't).

Now, I still like tough folders. My rationale is, that it would have a "larger envelope" so to speak, that you can push. A task that strains a centofante 3 would most likely not strain a ZT 301. So in this case, I'd say that the ZT is the stronger one. So in a few cases, I'd take a folder that isn't strained by the job at hand(though it may not cut as well), than a better cutting folder yet is strained by the task.

For example, we had a cookout and everybody pitched in for the food prep. My task was to peel and cut some yams into bite size pieces for frying. Now I dunno how tough yams are over there but here, yams get pretty big and are pretty hard. You have to bear down to cut it into smaller pieces. I used my para to peel and when I stuck the tip into the yam(which is as big around as my calf), I could feel the knife straining. I'm sure it could have done the job but I did have my ZT 301 which I used to split the large whole yams into smaller pieces that the para could then handle.

In short, I use a tough folder to do work that strains a less beefy folder. I don't use my "tough" folder to do a fixed blade's work.


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Postby KardinalSyn » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:42 am

What attracted me to CS was the fact that they advertise through demonstrations with the knife being put through certain tests.

I recall selling a certain US cellphone range and at demonstrations we used to drop the phone from about shoulder height on the floor and still be able to demo taking a call afterwards. We won those contracts each time. This was fifteen years ago. The other sellers could not do this. Our brand was engineered to absorb impacts and distribute it on the frame of the phone. The battery would disengage taking some of the force from the impact with it too. Loved those phones even though they had the basic of features.

No matter what shape size or lock was used though, there were only two which I liked with CS and I bought them.

When I held my first Spydie in my hands, something struck a chord. I bought the knives I have because I like them. I did not check how many pounds would take to break my Millie or Para2. Instead, I read reviews on how the knives fared in day to day use and liked what was said.

I don't expect my folders to mimic FBs.

We are not comparing apples against apples. These are two unique concepts. Let's appreciate each one for what is good about them and let it be.
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Postby Blerv » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:29 am

KardinalSyn wrote:What attracted me to CS was the fact that they advertise through demonstrations with the knife being put through certain tests.
Yea but they don't show long-term tests or the knives that fail. Not to knock CS but stabbing through a hood/door or hacking a rack of lamb isn't ground-breaking. S.O.G. cuts a bullet with one of their knives too. :D

It's over the top and not relevant to everyday use but entertaining to watch. Kinda like thrashing a new Jeep at speed off the paved path and watching people cheer as you bottom-out and scrape drivetrain components all the way up a hill.
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Postby gull wing » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:26 pm

Hi steve, good to hear from you, thanks.
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Postby Evil D » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:57 pm

mann0mann wrote:I've owned both and my only gripe with the Triad Lock is just how much force and how much "travel" the lock must be depressed to unlock the knife. It's never come natural to me with a Triad and very rarely is it a one handed operation. It's definitely one of the most solid and confidence inspiring lock mechanisms I've used, but I prefer a compression lock for ease use. I always wish Coldsteel would use a boye dent on their locks, not that I think it's needed for that functionality, but just for making the lock feel a little easier to use. I know it has nothing to do with it, but I always feel like the boye dent softens the feel of the lock. For example, I wish my Chaparral had it as well. It feels sharp without it.

This is simultaneously the biggest strength and drawback of this lock. It was the first thing i noticed about the American Lawman when i first handled it...you have to press that lock tab in a mile before it disengages, but that's exactly what makes the lock so strong, because there's so much lock tab engaging the tang. I suppose if i HAD to drive nails with the spine of a knife, i'd pick this knife for the job, but that's about all i'd ever use it for.
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Postby KardinalSyn » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:53 pm

Blerv wrote:Yea but they don't show long-term tests or the knives that fail. Not to knock CS but stabbing through a hood/door or hacking a rack of lamb isn't ground-breaking. S.O.G. cuts a bullet with one of their knives too. :D

It's over the top and not relevant to everyday use but entertaining to watch. Kinda like thrashing a new Jeep at speed off the paved path and watching people cheer as you bottom-out and scrape drivetrain components all the way up a hill.
That's true. Vids can be edited and blades can be tweaked to withstand higher stress levels. No way for a normal customer to know. It's that shock and awe marketing that attracts. Then when you buy it, you're not disappointed. Those tests are cruel on them blades :D
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Postby Joshua J. » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:44 pm

wec12 wrote:I still can't figure out why Tri-Ad lock would be stronger than lockback...
Like the Compression lock, the lock tab gets "pinched".
With traditional back locks you sometimes have the tab just "pop" off under stress. That's because you're using the tensile strength of the lock bar to resist forces, and you usually have a right angle at the interface which creates a stress riser. There's really a lot of things going against it.
If you pinch the lock tab, you use compressive strength, which in this application is much better (tensile strength is superior in a long object, compressive strength is better in short stubby things). You also skip the stress riser thing entirely (though there is still one on the hook in the blade tang, thus the corner in there is always nicely rounded, and it looks like they specifically tried to put a lot of metal behind it).

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Postby Blerv » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:54 pm

I think it's sometimes a case of engineering just so you can brag. If the Chinook breaks lock testing machines and the compression is similar in rating isn't a difficult to disengage lock just extravagance for the sake of extravagance? Are we making fighting knives for robots with piston fingers?

The Internet will tell you 400 hp is a joke and that life starts at 600. 800 would be better and 1000 a dream. Street tires and mediocre drivers are the great equalizer. Sometimes it's best to stop half way for the purpose intended before side effects of extremes kick in.

I'm not knocking the extremes. People just should recognize them as such. Otherwise all our folders will be 6+ oz and clunky to operate.
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Postby Evil D » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:43 pm

Blerv wrote: The Internet will tell you 400 hp is a joke and that life starts at 600. 800 would be better and 1000 a dream. Street tires and mediocre drivers are the great equalizer. Sometimes it's best to stop half way for the purpose intended before side effects of extremes kick in.

Yeah, let me tell ya, 9 out of 10 average drivers can not hold 400hp at wide open throttle on the road. That's a lot more power than it sounds. That's why modern cars that come with that kind of power also come with traction control. My Mustang is ~450hp and when you stand on the gas, things get buck wild. I just talked to an internet buddy today about his Mustang he just got back from getting tuned, it made almost 900hp at the wheels...i can't even imagine. I rode in a 700hp Nova once, and at full throttle you literally can't pull your head off the seat.

I'm all about the strongest lock possible. I love the idea of a folder that rivals fixed blade strength, regardless of how silly that is. Why not? That said, i don't want all that strength if it sacrifices ease of use to the point that i don't wanna EDC it. My favorite thing about the compression lock is how crazy fast you can shut the blade. To me that's as important as how fast i can open it. When i'm using a knife and especially at work, i need to draw/cut/close/clip as fast as possible and the only other lock i've ever used that's as fast as the compression lock is the CBBL.

All that aside, i wouldn't mind owning an American Lawman for something like camping use or just an all around no mercy beater knife but it's too cumbersome for my EDC tastes and i don't feel the compression lock loses enough strength (still, splitting hairs if it does) that it makes a difference in practical use, and the added ease of use is well worth the theoretical loss in strength.
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Postby Ankerson » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:51 pm

Evil D wrote:Yeah, let me tell ya, 9 out of 10 average drivers can not hold 400hp at wide open throttle on the road. That's a lot more power than it sounds. That's why modern cars that come with that kind of power also come with traction control. My Mustang is ~450hp and when you stand on the gas, things get buck wild. I just talked to an internet buddy today about his Mustang he just got back from getting tuned, it made almost 900hp at the wheels...i can't even imagine. I rode in a 700hp Nova once, and at full throttle you literally can't pull your head off the seat.

Exactly correct.

Most people are dreamers and full of crap as most of them couldn't even afford a car with 400 HP in the 1st place let alone drive one safely. I have driven cars up to 600 HP on the street and I can say I personally wouldn't what one with more than 500 HP period.

Most of them buy those POS tail pipe ends and think they have something out of one of those F&F movies.

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Postby BAL » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:43 am

chuck_roxas45 wrote:
For example, we had a cookout and everybody pitched in for the food prep. My task was to peel and cut some yams into bite size pieces for frying. Now I dunno how tough yams are over there but here, yams get pretty big and are pretty hard. You have to bear down to cut it into smaller pieces. I used my para to peel and when I stuck the tip into the yam(which is as big around as my calf), I could feel the knife straining. I'm sure it could have done the job but I did have my ZT 301 which I used to split the large whole yams into smaller pieces that the para could then handle.

In short, I use a tough folder to do work that strains a less beefy folder. I don't use my "tough" folder to do a fixed blade's work.


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Agree totally Chuck. I use a tool for the intended task. Admittedly
I do push teh envelope on occasion, but I have a respect for my
tools and intend on keeping them forever.

And remember what Popeye used to say
"I yam what I yam and that all that I yam.

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Postby RanCoWeAla » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:44 am

I owned a Cold Steel American Lawman and Spartan both and thought they were entirely too hard to release and close. That's one reason I got rid of both knives and went to something Spydercos that were a little more user friendly. I really don't need a knife that can survive being repeatedly stuck through a car hood.

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Postby Ankerson » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:21 am

It will really depend on intended use of the said knives in question, that's real use, not what they might be used for in someones dream world.

The locks are just one part of the knife, one has to look at the whole picture then decide on what they want to own and carry, that will be an individual choice that each person has to make on their own.

That said folding knives are what they are, they fold so if intended use would make one think about getting their fingers cut off or failure then a fixed blade is the real answer, not a folder.

However some folders can be fixed blade replacements to a point if one can't carry a fixed blade for various reasons, but they need to realize that the folder is not a fixed blade and use it with caution.

Proper use is also an individual thing as in what that person typically uses their knives for and that again will vary so that is an opinion.

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Postby dialex » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:03 am

wec12 wrote:I still can't figure out why Tri-Ad lock would be stronger than lockback...
I don't think it is. If you make a lockback comparable in terms of the dimensions of the lock and the blade, I'm quite sure it will have the same strength. From where I stand, all the innovations at the TriAd lock are meant to reduce the bladeplay.
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Postby jabba359 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:13 am

Blerv wrote:It's over the top and not relevant to everyday use but entertaining to watch. Kinda like thrashing a new Jeep at speed off the paved path and watching people cheer as you bottom-out and scrape drivetrain components all the way up a hill.
On a side note, one of my friends worked on a fairly recent Jeep commercial. While it looks cool, he told me that they ended up breaking two of the Jeeps to get the shots! Of course, video editing makes it look like they handle the abuse just fine!
-Kyle

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Postby KardinalSyn » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:04 am

Wonder if there is a competition that a set up like Blade Sports International Inc., could organize to actually pit blade against blade.

A trip down memory lane when Mr Bradley competes at the "Rope – 14 - 1” bundled ropes cutting on April 5, 2008

Pics courtesy of the BladeSports website.

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Water Bottles – 19
Gayle Bradley on April 5, 2008

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:spyder: Centofante3 (C66PBK3), ParaMilitary2 (C81GPCMO), Endura4 (C10P), GrassHopper (C138P), Military (C36GPCMO), Perrin PPT (C135GP), Squeak (C154PBK), Dragonfly 2 Salt (C28PYL2), Military M390 CF (C36CFM390P), R (C67GF), ParaMilitary2 CTS-XHP (C81GPOR2), Tuff (C151GTIP), Ladybug & Perrin Street Bowie (FB04PBB)being the newest.

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Postby BAL » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:11 am

jabba359 wrote:On a side note, one of my friends worked on a fairly recent Jeep commercial. While it looks cool, he told me that they ended up breaking two of the Jeeps to get the shots! Of course, video editing makes it look like they handle the abuse just fine!
Thanks for posting this info jabba359, I have told the wife the same thing for years about commercials like that.
On a side bar congrats on the Masssad Ayoob, sweeeet.


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