SharpMaker & Chef's Knife

[Cliff Stamp]

My wife uses the curved blade nearly every day and I must sharpen resharpen at least once per week. One of the concerns I have is that she occassionally will cut some frozen food using a significant amount of force. (some might call it ice sculpting) I might keep the Osters for her heavier duty slicing and reserve the new knife for regular duty cutting.

Before you invest in a new knife there is likely some issues with the sharpening if they are going blunt that fast. I would suspect that the edge is rolled and it is being aligned and not actually sharpened on the Sharpmaker as the knives are behaving just like they were steeled.

The next time you have to sharpen them, make 1-2 light passes directly into the medium stone like you are trying to cut it in half. This will grind into the edge and remove the weakened/deformed metal. When you sharpen it then on the medium rods you will create an edge out of fresh and strong steel.

Even on steels like 420J2, you should easily be able to go on the other of months before the knife will not slice a tomato easily for example. This is a 420J2 Chicago Cutlery knife and it took three months to get to this stage with it being the only knife I was using in the kitchen :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P-8NRHFcgM

The blunting at this time was just deformation, no wear as noted in the linked video where the edge is restored with just a smooth rod. In general abrasive wear is really low in kitchen use so high carbide steels like VG-10 are not terribly useful.

As for frozen foods, unless it is in packaging like cutting through frozen cans of juice and similar which have metal rims. It isn't overly demanding unless you are having to chop/pound on the spine to make the cut, as long as it can be cut with similar force to non-frozen food, it isn't that hard on the edge as ice is very soft.

The biggest issue is when the cut can not be made and you start twisting/prying which doesn't usually damage the edge but can bend tips or even the main blade in extreme cases.

[Donut]

I am thinking you might want to look at a cheaper and thicker cleaver. You know...using the right tool for the job. Having a dedicated beater blade will leave your non-beaters sharp for longer.

[razorsharp]

another vote for Shun Wasabi

[w3tnz]

I recently brought a set for our new place, got a set of old hickory knives and a cleaver for $45. They are 1095 which some people wont like, but such good value for money. I was looking at the shun wasabi series too, quite well priced but a bit more than I wanted to spend for my cookery exploits.

[Sht]

W3ntz. If you treat the handels you will get more life out of them.

[Creepo]

I would just also like to point out that to us knifenuts who are already familiar with KAI's other lineups (Kershaw, Zero Tolerance), the Shun's seem like a very good (and natural) high end choice with a good steel (meaning the VG10 and better models). But there are a good load of other very nice VG10 (and other high-end japanese stainless) knives available for much less money. :)
You just have to go past our usual knife shops to shops that specialize in kitchen knives.

[PocketZen]

I would like to upgrade my chef's knife at home to something that will better hold an edge. At the same time I would like to use my SharpMaker to keep it sharp. Unless I am missing something Spyderco does not make kitchen cutlery so I am looking for a recommendation that will run me less than, let's say $110... if this is realistic. Perhaps something in the 8" range...

My suggestion to you. Low carbide steel at great price with excellent customer service.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/riar21.html

[jzmtl]

We actually sell the twin cermax in the shop I work at, I had no idea it was ZDP-189. Do you know if the MD68 is also ZDP just at a higher hardness? The Chef's and Santoku they did with the red micarta and laminated with damascus a la Shun?

I'm not familiar with MD68 so can't say. Henckels doesn't say publicly what steel is used in cermax, but someone on a kitchen knife forum asked them specifically and they replied it's ZDP. Besides there certainly isn't many steel that can reach that hardness.

[MCM]

For me its all about thinness, balance & how they feel in the hand.
Have a 4 star Henckels set for the past 27 yrs, pieced a set of Wusthof Classic IKON's together just last year.
Very happy with the swap. My most used is probably a Wusthof Classic IKON 5.5" Santoku Hollow Granton Edge. Its 7" brother gets lots of use too, but the 5" is just so handy for everything.
(And thin)
The longer handles & ergo's sold me on these. I used to use an 8" chef's knife the most, but the Santoko's are now steeling the show. Funny, I went looking for upgrading the blade steel and when it came down to it, it was more how they felt in the hand.
So, I would grab a 5" Wusthof Classic IKON for well under $100 off the bay & go from there.
If you are set on a traditional chef knife, I would get the same as above in 8".
It too is amazing.........
Just my two.

[butch]

mark has many options on his sight
this thread makes me wish sal was still plroducing the pro galley (think thats what it was called ) its an over sized sharpmaker that has cat eye honing rods for large kitchen knives

[JohnTaylor]

[Before you invest in a new knife there is likely some issues with the sharpening if they are going blunt that fast. I would suspect that the edge is rolled and it is being aligned and not actually sharpened on the Sharpmaker as the knives are behaving just like they were steeled.]

I think you may be right. Yesterday I sharpened/aligned the knife so that it easily cut telephone book paper. This morning my wife used it to cut a few vegetables after which I could no longer cut telephone book paper. 4 passes with medium, 8 passes with fine, 8 passes with ultra fine... and I was back to cutting paper easily. So, what am I doing wrong, how can I detect my mistakes, and what can I do to correct them?

[Cliff Stamp]

I think you may be right. Yesterday I sharpened/aligned the knife so that it easily cut telephone book paper. This morning my wife used it to cut a few vegetables after which I could no longer cut telephone book paper. 4 passes with medium, 8 passes with fine, 8 passes with ultra fine... and I was back to cutting paper easily.

Assuming the vegetables were not cut on a plate or glass cutting board, the edge is over stressed and it is folding prematurely. Take the knife, make one light pass into the edge of the medium rod as if you were trying to saw it in half. Just use the weight of the knife, don't actually press into it.

Nothing will happen if you do press very hard except you will remove more material than you need to. This step will grind off weakened metal and it should leave the knife fairly dull and reflecting light along the entire edge. If it doesn't reflect light along the edge edge just make another pass.

Now go back to the medium rods and start using alternating passes and use very light force, check every few passes and stop when the edge is no longer reflecting light. This should not take very long, maybe 10-20 passes at most, depending on the edge bevel width/angle.

Now switch to the fine rods, again using the flats and elevate/tilt the blade to increase the angle by a significant amount, get it up to about 30-40 degrees per side, make 1-2 pass per side alternating extremely light as in 5-10 grams, do not even use the weight of the knife.

You don't need to measure this, just make sure the angle is a lot higher than you are honing.

Now go back to the pure vertical strokes and finish with 5-10 passes (again depending on the edge angle/width). The edge should now be sharp and destressed and the edge retention will be 10-100X greater.

If you have the UF stones and want more of a polish, then just repeat with them, use the tilted passes then the regular ones.

If you don't do the destressing step (the first cut into the medium rod) the edge will collapse with the first passes on the rods and you will end up with an edge which is formed out of highly worn/weakened metal and it will have low slicing aggression and almost non-existent edge retention.

[gaj999]

I've had the Global 8" Chef for over 10 years. Sal said it was AUS-6. Global seems to have hardened it nicely, it feels way harder than the German knives, and the blade profile is nice and thin. I touch it up at 15 degrees per side. The ergos are really good. I've been really happy with the knife and IIRC I got it for about $70.

Gordon

[JohnTaylor]

Hey Cliff,

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain all of this for me! Late last night I followed the steps you have recommended and today or tomorrow my wife will test to see if I have completed them correctly. I will let you now the out come.

Also, I have a USB microscope on order that should allow me to photo the blade. If so, I might just post some photos of what I am doing for everyone's review (and entertainment - smile).

[Cliff Stamp]

I will let you now the out come.

Thanks, if you are just cutting vegetables (and you don't live on a farm, as fresh farm vegetables are generally really dirty) you should easily be able to go weeks to months before the knife starts to struggle slicing newsprint, even with a 420J2 knife which is about the simplest stainless steel you can get in a kitchen knife.

The simplest way to figure out the cause is to just look at the edge under light, if the edge folds very quickly you will see it reflecting light strongly and it was over stressed before sharpening and/or it was heavily burred.

[John E]

I know that there is often interest in buying Golden made Spyderco knives in order to support Made in USA knives. I live in Western Massachusetts where one of the oldest and few (if only) factories making cooking knives exists- Lamson & Goodnow is located in Shelburne Falls, MA. They make a very large number of knives for commercial purposes, but also has a very nice line of forged cooking knives "Lamsonsharp". They actually have a very nice outlet store in the factory, but also sell in quite a few cook stores around here, and by mail order. I have quite a few of their knives ( a 6" santoku, a 10" chef's knife, a 6" chef's knife, a boning knife, etc.) I do not know the exact steel they use, but the knives stay sharp well, and are easy to sharpen. I have used both a waterstone and (when in more of a rush) the sharpmaker.

Just wanted to offer an alternative to the german, chinese, and japan made knife mentioned.

John E.

[JohnTaylor]

Hey Cliff,

Well, my wife chopped a moderate amount of veggies. Now the blade will barely slice a telephone book page. I followed your steps above and thought I did it correctly. Please take a look at the attached photos and see if you can spot what I am doing wrong.

I did notice that my wife used the blade to wipe the veggies off the cutting board. The board is hard plastic with a large number of rough cuts and gouges. She always does this by pushing the processed food off to the right, right edge of the blade leading. I don't know if this should make any difference.

I attempted to add a micro bevel which can be viewed in two of the attached photos.

Thanks!

[Cliff Stamp]

She always does this by pushing the processed food off to the right, right edge of the blade leading. I don't know if this should make any difference.

Curiously enough, if you actually take the knife and just scrape the surface of the cutting board it will sharpen the knife in a very crude manner, similar to using a steel. If you scrape one way a few times enough to peel the plastic off the board, and then do the other way you will likely see the amount of light reflecting off the edge is dramatically reduced. I do not recommend doing this as a way to hone the blades as it tears up the cutting board pretty bad, but it will align the edge rapidly. It can not wear the edge significantly as the plastic is too soft (just try to polish the flat by rubbing it against the board, nothing happens).

There is something odd going on in that steel for the edge to be both impacting and blunting that quickly. I have seen that happen before but only when the steel was over heated at the edge (someone used power sharpening on it at one point incorrectly) or heavily impacted and the damage was not fully removed. The last thing is that the aus-grain could be blown, in that case there is nothing you can do.

Here is a very heavily used knife :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgQKgqQEj6g

The edge on that will cut newsprint easily for weeks, with constant use (including scraping, etc.). I sharpen it in the video on one of the simplest things you can use, the carbide pull through. Note in the beginning how harsh it sounds, this is all the deformed metal getting cut off. If I do not get rid of all of that then the edge will collapse almost immediately just as you are experiencing.

Do all of the kitchen knives act like that or just that one.

I really would bet the edge is still over stressed or is being left with a burr which is collapsing. However if you get good results on other knives then this can not be the case and it has to be the steel, and the steel has to be horribly flawed as even the cheapest kitchen knife you can buy out of $5 mystery steel is much more capable when properly sharpened.

[JohnTaylor]

Hey Cliff,

Thank you so much for taking the time to dialog on this topic. I have learned so much from your postings and your videos! Also, you prevented my purchasing something I did not necessarily need and probably would have ruined while sharpening.

I think your question about the other chef's knives is a valid one. I have a second knife from the same set that I sharpened in an almost identical fashion. It is sharp enought to cut phone book paper almost as smoothly as my factory fresh Spyderco Tenacious. Yesterday I chopped a large handful of relatively tough roasted almonds with this blade. Testing on phone book paper, it was just a very very tiny bit less sharp than before. 3 strokes on the UF rods and it came right back.

I got the same result on a third knife as I did the second.

Thank you so much for your initial very intelligent question and your expert advice!

[Cliff Stamp]

I have a second knife from the same set that I sharpened in an almost identical fashion. It is sharp enought to cut phone book paper almost as smoothly as my factory fresh Spyderco Tenacious. Yesterday I chopped a large handful of relatively tough roasted almonds with this blade. Testing on phone book paper, it was just a very very tiny bit less sharp than before. 3 strokes on the UF rods and it came right back.

Excellent, that is what you should expect. I am still curious as to exactly what is happening with the other knife. If you have the time/inclination, I would be curious what would happen if you left it with the finish of the medium rods and just left it for rougher work and sharpened it as frequently as needed. I am betting that the edge retention will improve significantly in time. If it does not then there is an issue with the steel, there can be many reasons for this and when it happens (and warranty isn't an option) I normally just leave the edge really coarse and use it for gardening or similar.